[1.5.x] Class/Race Tier List

[Mankeli]

Yeah, that must be it. Even more so considering that a necromancer would probably be best played with a higher anyways so that you can have that sacrifice shield on at all times and can safely kite tough things like half a million HP final bosses.

[Mex]

The original post only makes reference to classes in their capacity to complete certain difficulties, not races.

Even then Shalore can pick up hidden resources, Higher works on a 35 turn cd which doesn't combo correctly on necro (iirc it's on a 20/25 turn rotation). So yeah Shalore are better Highers than Highers, such balance...

I don't see why you would pick Cornac for Archmage as they are already tight on talent points. There isn't really a tree worth unlocking there and I don't see any worthwhile generic trees that you don't already have. Therefore it would simply be a bonus inscription slot at the expense of timeless.

I don't see the advantage of unlocking 2 trees early on as you only need the time shield to cover early game defense (coupled with the dispersion shield you get relatively soon).

Drowning a boss in Last Hope + the rest usually puts you at level 8 as a minimum, which is just 2 levels off getting time shield, so your point of at "level 4 onwards" is pointless, level 10 and onwards is sufficient.

[Mankeli]

The original post only makes reference to classes in their capacity to complete certain difficulties, not races.

Yeah, I was feeling stupid.

Even then Shalore can pick up hidden resources, Higher works on a 35 turn cd which doesn't combo correctly on necro (iirc it's on a 20/25 turn rotation). So yeah Shalore are better Highers than Highers, such balance...

Well, sure but at a cost. I hear you on the cooldown and balance points though.

I don't see why you would pick Cornac for Archmage as they are already tight on talent points. There isn't really a tree worth unlocking there and I don't see any worthwhile generic trees that you don't already have. Therefore it would simply be a bonus inscription slot at the expense of timeless.

I don't see the advantage of unlocking 2 trees early on as you only need the time shield to cover early game defense (coupled with the dispersion shield you get relatively soon).

Drowning a boss in Last Hope + the rest usually puts you at level 8 as a minimum, which is just 2 levels off getting time shield, so your point of at "level 4 onwards" is pointless, level 10 and onwards is sufficient.

You don't get timeless from level 1 nor 10 onward as you are well aware. I'm fairly certain Cornac is stronger in the early game but as I already wrote in my last post, timeless eventually makes shalore better. The disparity between cat points doesn't go away at level 10 because cornacs can then get a movement/other inscription to make it 4 total. I won a cornac archmage on insane but it was pretty suboptimal since I didn't pick light because I wasn't aware of the changes in light tree back then. But with light, you'll have plenty of points to use your generics. I would rate (light)cornac number two after shalore for archmages and number one until you have timeless.

There isn't any point in unlocking two trees for wildfire archmage early but that extra infusion slot is still nice -eventhough the difference between having 3 vs. 4 inscriptions is smaller than having vs. not having a time shield.

Have you tried the halfling/brawler thing, does it pay off?

Edit. And Last Hope bosses aren't guaranteed, I've seen occasions where there isn't even a single rare in Last Hope. GL getting to level 8 without a single rare/unique/boss on LH. Start scumming "fixes" this of course. One boss takes shalore to level 7, one unique takes a shalore to level 5, one rare takes a shalore to level 3 (from level 1 and in LH, obviously). The rest of the towns are nice for cash and items but not very exp rich.

[Mex]

The additional inscription isn't really worth missing out on Timeless (and the crit chance racial, which is also important). Especially a spellcaster which is reliant on spell cds.

It isn't necessary by any means so I'm sure you could complete Madness using Cornac, but given the option Shalore is clearly the superior race in pretty much any situation.

Haven't tried halfling brawler, but I believe evasion was nerfed some time ago so that needs to be kept in mind.

If you're playing on Madness and not start scumming for a boss in Last Hope as a minimum you're not going to have a good time (to the point that it's a better time investment to restart than trying to start at a low level).

[Mankeli]

The additional inscription isn't really worth missing out on Timeless (and the crit chance racial, which is also important). Especially a spellcaster which is reliant on spell cds.

Lol, I still haven't made any claims about timeless or shalore being inferior to cornacs after you have timeless, just that before the you do get timeless I think cornacs archmages may very well be stronger, depending on some things. But only to that point, after that shalore rule. Shalore is the best class, I don't why you want to argue on that since we both agree .

It isn't necessary by any means so I'm sure you could complete Madness using Cornac, but given the option Shalore is clearly the superior race in pretty much any situation.

If "pretty much any situation" includes exp. levels where you don't have points in timeless and magic of the eternals and you haven't gotten your mag ultra high (for teh speedz via GotE) via amazingingly lucky drops from early drowning then I don't agree with pretty much any situation. If "any situation" refers to level 50 character then I agree 100 %.

Haven't tried halfling brawler, but I believe evasion was nerfed some time ago so that needs to be kept in mind.

I actually meant the defense bonus you get from Duck and Dodge (I think I refered to this talent by Luck of the Little Folk before which is a mistake on my part) combined with reflex defense. I've seem characters on normal with over 30 % damage reduction from Reflex Defense and on you can get over 50 additional defence from DaD easily to boost your Reflec Defence, I think I've seen values on well over 100 too. But I'm gonna make a new thread about this.

If you're playing on Madness and not start scumming for a boss in Last Hope as a minimum you're not going to have a good time (to the point that it's a better time investment to restart than trying to start at a low level).

Yep, this is the sad truth. However, I have many times gotten unlucky with rare quantity in LH but amazingly lucky with equipment meaning that I have left that place on level 6 which means one unique and 1-2 rares. 2 levels is a tough bargain to get from other towns. Of course, one could argue that in these instances one should just scum more until you get both the exp and the amazing items.

[Red]

And, to be fair, Madness was not originally supposed to be completable if what I've heard is true. It was there to test what is well and truly broken, so everything on that S rank list is just begging for a nerf.

[LordKarasuman]

Didn't TW get nerfed already?

[Dhurke]

I can't find an insane winner for Temporal Wardens in the vault. Yet they are listed as Class S?

[Mankeli]

I can't find an insane winner for Temporal Wardens in the vault. Yet they are listed as Class S?

Stition has an ongoing level 50 TW AFAIK on madness. TWs are crazy mobile, very good damage and are nigh invulnerable with damage smearing + temporal wards. Their only big weakness is that they have the curse of melee on them.

The temporal combat tree is amazing.

[Wolls]

I would just like to add that you can do very good damage.. and to be honest better damage with a Wrymic than is apparent. Dissolve for starters will hit 8 times when attacking multi-handed. In the final battle ( http://te4.org/characters/63460/tome/73 ... ac72d7e04d and my Psi Blades are not engaged here: I died to Ata.. three ..well.. at least more than once)

and thus against the easy Elandar my char was hitting ~ 3.1-3.5k Dissolve / 2.3k PrismSlash / 800-1.2k IceClaw with 450ish spit acid proc and 230-450ish hateful whisper proc's. And then half of that damage for the I-resist-thee-All Argoniel.

Wyrmic Damage

Is this good damage / bad damage? Honestly.. verses an Alchemist this Wyrmic out damaged everything in a 1-to-1 setting. And with Fungus I blew through large groups.. yes I hunted those Orc Patrols. But again.. its the same for most of my chars.. where I run I run and I get tired of running ( oddly when I have the Advantage) so I just attack and attack. But seriously I dominated here.

Which is not to say that Wyrmic's should be above Alchemists.

One point: Danger Pay. Or at least that's what I term it.. so to explain: With an Alchemist you will often fight a 'they' ..err the Bosses, Uniques, Rares. IF you happen to be controlling your Golem whilst a 'they' die.. you get double the experience points. ( Umm Summoners can take control.. I have never tested if they get the boost.... but if the XP scales.. lol .. Golem being 1 summon's worth of equal points.. )

With an Alchemist you can very early level up super quick or at any opportune time grab a couple levels to reach a select talent level. ( I got to level 20 before I reached a 2nd tier Old Forest.. doing all the first tiers .. on Nightmare.. with only channel staff. And honestly it was easy to that point.) And yes I did lead with my Golem.

Another link : http://te4.org/characters/63460/tome/7c ... 5b97f039c1
Level 50 Golem.. pre-crazy Vitality and sub nerf. ( If only for the +20% heal mod.) I could walk into any Farportal and have my Golem beat the Farportal Boss. Sit back Supercharge.. or then when low Refit Golem ( Heal). Well.. under Generic Talents that 2364 Point Damage Shield is per The Untouchable. Talent:Life Tape and The Golem gets hit and procs The Untouchable shield effect... proactive but by the time the damage shield wears out... it's healed. This is playstyle where you are leading with the Golem. ( And this is before the Alchy re-write whereas I still don't know IF I can out damage 1-on-1 versus the Wyrmic BUT the ability to Scout with its like 18 square/spaces..is so powerful.)

One on one.. with no escape the Wrymic hits harder and is better against. Where with any kind of space the Alchemist does better but can't substain any damage/hits. In the higher difficulties the battle's turn towards 1-on-1. BUT you have at least 18 box squares to knead/ wear down/ pre-damage with the Alchemist. There is a Rogue skill which acts simular to the Golem and was nerfed. But I don't think it evar gave you double XP.

Whats that song.. Danger Zone.. yessir yessir.

EDIT: This is pre the umm Alchemist err boost and ahead of the awaited Wrymic. But 1-on-1 in a contained area I just don't see the Alchy doing much... so stuns.. disarms.. confuses.. I don't know.. there is synergy there with the Elements.. but for a lowest tier getting upped and then watching all the other classes get boosted to where your still the lowest..?? Danger Pay doesn't quite match but I still have a hard time seeing it as the lowest where you should honestly be dominating to no ill effect.

[Dhurke]

I can't find an insane winner for Temporal Wardens in the vault. Yet they are listed as Class S?

Stition has an ongoing level 50 TW AFAIK on madness. TWs are crazy mobile, very good damage and are nigh invulnerable with damage smearing + temporal wards. Their only big weakness is that they have the curse of melee on them.

The temporal combat tree is amazing.

Yeah I'm running an insane TW now. Very mobile which pairs fine with the bow for shooting and disappearing etc. The magic trees doesn't really hurt the mobs though... mediocre damage and range makes you wanna go dual melee instead, which is crazy hard on insane. The temporal combat tree is amazing but doesn't have any offensive abilities.

[Red]

Can't you use Echoes of the Past/Temporal Wake to do damage? Temporal Wake initial damage, then Echoes of the Past to steadily increase your damage output?

And is there any documentation on increased experience gains when not controlling your main character? That sounds abusable and fun as hell.

[Mankeli]

Yeah I'm running an insane TW now. Very mobile which pairs fine with the bow for shooting and disappearing etc. The magic trees doesn't really hurt the mobs though... mediocre damage and range makes you wanna go dual melee instead, which is crazy hard on insane. The temporal combat tree is amazing but doesn't have any offensive abilities.

Yeah, dual melee is the way I imagine the best damage output would be. I don't know if the backup gear is best used with a short staff and a shield (both with wards) or bow. I guess swift hands would allow you to do whatever.

Temporal combat kind of does have an offensive ability, well sort of, because Invigorate allows one to actually sustain momentum unlike some other classes. Then add haste and suddenly you can deal a lot of murder.

I've won a TW on normal roguelike and now I'm working on madness roguelike. That's a good progression right there .

Apart from amazing damage on 1:1 situations (or 1:100 situations if you play a doombringer with wrath lol), melee is horrible IMO. That's why I call it a curse . I can kind of understand someone winning with an archmage on madness roguelike and on insane it's not even that hard. Luckily you can find nice wands from your starter town too: I just got a wand with 1300 power from LH with a melee character on madness. It deals something like 600-1300 damage per shot. Suddenly not that melee anymore. (Well, ok, wands this good are crazy rare).

Good luck with your character, Dhurke.

[Dhurke]

Yeah I'm running an insane TW now. Very mobile which pairs fine with the bow for shooting and disappearing etc. The magic trees doesn't really hurt the mobs though... mediocre damage and range makes you wanna go dual melee instead, which is crazy hard on insane. The temporal combat tree is amazing but doesn't have any offensive abilities.

Yeah, dual melee is the way I imagine the best damage output would be. I don't know if the backup gear is best used with a short staff and a shield (both with wards) or bow. I guess swift hands would allow you to do whatever.

Temporal combat kind of does have an offensive ability, well sort of, because Invigorate allows one to actually sustain momentum unlike some other classes. Then add haste and suddenly you can deal a lot of murder.

I've won a TW on normal roguelike and now I'm working on madness roguelike. That's a good progression right there .

Apart from amazing damage on 1:1 situations (or 1:100 situations if you play a doombringer with wrath lol), melee is horrible IMO. That's why I call it a curse . I can kind of understand someone winning with an archmage on madness roguelike and on insane it's not even that hard. Luckily you can find nice wands from your starter town too: I just got a wand with 1300 power from LH with a melee character on madness. It deals something like 600-1300 damage per shot. Suddenly not that melee anymore. (Well, ok, wands this good are crazy rare).

Good luck with your character, Dhurke.

Thanks!
I've never seen a wand above 400 in power, didn't know they existed! I havn't used the Chronomancy tree yet. Is Precognition any good? How is it best used? I have track on an item so I never bothered with Precognition.

/Dhurke

[Mankeli]

I don't like precognition for a variety of reasons (still buggy, track exists, tedious to use) but with foresight it can probably be used well enough -at least until track. I don't like that whole tree at all actually. Also, track doesn't work in vaults, precognition does.

Stition's warden seems to have invested some points in that tree but I don't really understand while you would ever want to invest a point in a moment of prescience.

I definitely like to float points in precognition/foresight before track though. I use it in combination with shields/heroism and a movement infusion. With a movement infusion you actually get pretty good info about the direction you choose to explore.