Aim vs. Rapid Shot vs. neither

[Canderel]

How about aim+rapid shot? I've always wondered but never wanted to analyse.

[lukep]

IIRC, they're mutually exclusive, so you can't do that in the vanilla game.

[jenx]

I'm wondering what the effect of arhcers vs slingers here might be. Would rapid further suit slingers, due to faster attack speed?

I'm running a yeek slinger with rapid, and it gets a lot of shots in per turn, for smallish damage.

Running out of ammo is a problem with crowds.

[Fhtagn]

One point you might want to look at as well: it's perfectly feasible to reach crit rates near or even of 100% even with Rapid Shot on, in which case the crit gain through Aim just evaporates. Add to that the fact that the physical power gain is scaled down with high physical power, and that attack speed scales perfectly with any damage upgrades you might make, AND the fact that Rapid Shot will let you move, and Aim becomes are very, very situational alternative versus high-AC targets only.

[jenx]

I"ve run both through to East, and Rapid Shot is good earlier, and tougher later, because it is hard to get the crit rate up to 100%. I'm trying again with a Halfling and I think it will be better this time.

[Fhtagn]

You can get Precise Strikes, with your high dex, that alone should net ~20%, and Shaloren Racials for another 10%.
But yes, you're right about the damage being a problem in the endgame. I found myself breezing through everything on my last slinger, but having a lot of trouble in the last fight. Then again, I did waste a category point I should have used on infusions instead, and I should have gemmed for stun immunity for the final fight. I pretty much died to having cds on relentless pursuit, timeless and my one wild infusion. I'm quite convinced I would have won had I thought of that.

[jenx]

the great thing abuot the halfling crit increase is that it increases saves as well. 5 turns doesn't sound much, but with rapid shot on, that's a lot of shots at high speed (about 8-9 I think). If I can get them all criting, and cripple on crit (which reduces attack/spell/mind speed), then I'm set I think.

here she is so far:

http://te4.org/characters/2460/tome/dda ... de95e6b296

[jenx]

Having played with both Aim and Rapid Shot to high levels, I think to be honest that a distinguishing advantage of Rapid Shot is not obvious, but it is the movement. With Aim, you get the 8 turn cooldown. So you see a corruptors green ball and you think, "Mmmm, I think I can weather that storm, caus' I don't want to turn off Aim." With Rapid Shot, you step to the side and start shooting again. Even at low levels, such as in Scintallating Caves, this can be a game changer (aka game saver).

And there is almost no loss at high levels. My winner (http://te4.org/characters/2460/tome/dda ... de95e6b296) had 100 accuracy (i.e. *** in tooltip), 200 dmg, 100% crit chance, and was doing about 2,000 damage per shot. (1000+ per shot against Atamatathon even, though he still beat me ).

What I want to try is yeek with rapid shot, with extra cat point in that talent, plus +15% global speed prodigy . Ideally, pick up an amulet of enraging (very rare indeed) for extra attack speed, and the artifact sling that is faster than all the others. Now that would be fun.

[jenx]

For those who want to do these calculations taking into account APR and enemy armor and armor hardiness, the original formula needs to be adjusted as follows:

Original Formula
Damage per hit = (char sheet display) * (1.2 for damage range average) * (1.00 + (crit mult -1) * crit rate) * physical damage mult + damage on hit total

The variable that changes is "(char sheet display)" , that is, basic raw damage. The formula in lua is (changing "pres" for "hardiness" for readability, etc):

Code: Select all

armor_after_apr = math.max(0, armor - apr)
dam = math.max(dam * hardiness - armor_after_apr, 0) + (dam * (1 - hardiness ))

Thus Damage per hit (DPH) with APR would be:
armor_after_apr = math.max(0, armor - apr)

Adjusted Formula
DPH_apr = (max(dam*hardiness - armor_after_apr,0) + (dam*(1-hardiness)) * (1.2 for damage range) * (100% + 1/2 crit rate) + damage on hit total

The max means that APR can only reduce armor to zero and no lower.

So, taking the basic figures originally posted:

Normal: 82 * 1.2 * 1.09 +0 = 107.3 damage per hit * 1/0.8 = 134.1 damage per turn (100% of normal)
Aim: 93 * 1.2 * 1.32 + 0 = 147.3 damage per hit * 1/1.0666 = 138.1 damage per turn (103% of normal)
Rapid: 82 * 1.2 * 1 + 0 = 98.4 damage per hit * 1/0.4848 = 203.0 damage per turn (151% of normal)

and proposing an enemy with armour 45, armour hardiness of 30%, and your apr is 30 normal, the effect would be for Normal shot:

armor_after_apr = 45 - 30 = 15
dam = max(82*0.3-15,0)+(82*0.7) = 67
DPH_apr = 67 * 1.2 * 1.09 + 0 = 87.64 * 1/0.8 = 109.55 [DPH_apr = 87.64, DPT_apr = 109.55 (82% of normal)

So for all three shot types, the results would be:
Normal: DPH_apr = 67 * 1.2 * 1.09 + 0 = 87.64 * 1/0.8 = 109.55 [DPH_apr = 87.64, DPT_apr = 109.55 (82% of normal)
Aim: DPH_apr = 93 * 1.2 * 1.32 + 0 = 147.3 * 1/1.0666 = 138.1 [DPH_apr = 138.1, DPT_apr = 138.1 (103% of normal)
Rapid: 67 * 1.2 * 1 + 0 = 80.40 * 1/0.4848 = 165.86 damage per turn [DPH_apr = 80.40, DPT_apr = 165.86 (124% of normal)

This shows that Aim is "better" under these conditions than normal or rapid, due to the higher apr (as it is high enough to negate armor in this example), but still does less damage per turn than Rapid.

[knonme]

Hey guys, just had a archer game a few days back where I maxed both aim and Rapid, I also luckily managed to find that temporal quiver with limitless ammo and the ... storm bow(?) that had 80% attk speed. and did lightning daze on hit. On the other hand I had a much more powerful quiver with higher base attack, armor pen, and crit chance, along with an artifact bow that reduced a few key skill's cool-downs. Before I went to the prides that game, I experimented alot with both the weapons and aim vs rapid shot. And roughly? I found both Aim and Rapid Shot useful in any given situation, and my bow with the cd reduction on steady along with the more powerful (If ablit only 14 max ammo) quiver was more effective in both stances. For me I would always be in rapid shot wandering around, until i met up with something. From there if they were easy mooks I'd just kill them in rapid shot, but if it were say... a greater wyrm or some unique. I'd shoot of crippling, pinning, and/or scatter shot (if I want scatter shot for the stun, or AoE dmg) THEN Switch to Aim after I feel safe planting my feet down, and begin pelting it with steady shots Vital shots ect. Really I found the crit reduction on Rapid to be a big deal (Since I was stacking %phy dmg and +crit mod it dose make sense).


P.S. Kinda skimmed on the calculations, but would putting blinding speed's boost in there change the outcome of it?

[lukep]

P.S. Kinda skimmed on the calculations, but would putting blinding speed's boost in there change the outcome of it?

Blinding Speed would affect both of their damage per turn values equally. So (for example) the DPT would go from 150->225 for one, and 200->300 for the other (at +50% global speed)

[jenx]

Hey guys, just had a archer game a few days back where I maxed both aim and Rapid, I also luckily managed to find that temporal quiver with limitless ammo and the ... storm bow(?) that had 80% attk speed. and did lightning daze on hit. On the other hand I had a much more powerful quiver with higher base attack, armor pen, and crit chance, along with an artifact bow that reduced a few key skill's cool-downs. Before I went to the prides that game, I experimented alot with both the weapons and aim vs rapid shot. And roughly? I found both Aim and Rapid Shot useful in any given situation, and my bow with the cd reduction on steady along with the more powerful (If ablit only 14 max ammo) quiver was more effective in both stances. For me I would always be in rapid shot wandering around, until i met up with something. From there if they were easy mooks I'd just kill them in rapid shot, but if it were say... a greater wyrm or some unique. I'd shoot of crippling, pinning, and/or scatter shot (if I want scatter shot for the stun, or AoE dmg) THEN Switch to Aim after I feel safe planting my feet down, and begin pelting it with steady shots Vital shots ect. Really I found the crit reduction on Rapid to be a big deal (Since I was stacking %phy dmg and +crit mod it dose make sense).


P.S. Kinda skimmed on the calculations, but would putting blinding speed's boost in there change the outcome of it?

If I go for Rapid Shot, I also go for 100% crit (or really, 120% crit). It's hard but possible. To negate enemies crit reduction though, you'd need 125% crit (really, 145% crit reduction!), and that's probably not possible except with crazy gear drops.

[Omega Blue]

And there is almost no loss at high levels. My winner (http://te4.org/characters/2460/tome/dda ... de95e6b296) had 100 accuracy (i.e. *** in tooltip), 200 dmg, 100% crit chance, and was doing about 2,000 damage per shot. (1000+ per shot against Atamatathon even, though he still beat me ).

How do you get gems embedded in belts and such?

[TheRani]

And there is almost no loss at high levels. My winner (http://te4.org/characters/2460/tome/dda ... de95e6b296) had 100 accuracy (i.e. *** in tooltip), 200 dmg, 100% crit chance, and was doing about 2,000 damage per shot. (1000+ per shot against Atamatathon even, though he still beat me ).

How do you get gems embedded in belts and such?

There is a prodigy that lets you do that.

[Omega Blue]

I also noticed the character has a willpower of 14 and a spell save of 72? Even if some items can give you such a large boost I am wondering how he got by, say, Dreadfall?