Halfway point in the game?

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Repton
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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#16 Post by Repton »

When I play a mage I normally die due to carelessness, because it is quite easy. I actually think sense and PD are the biggies: if you've got patience and concentration, you can always see what's coming, and you can always retreat to a safe spot.

If you wanted to make things more interesting for mages, you could make sense not detect traps :-) Or make directed phase door have much steeper requirements (e.g. level 30+). Perhaps you could have semi-directed at level 2 or 3, where you target with a cone and land randomly within it.

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#17 Post by Final Master »

darkgod wrote:Why would you say they are easiest? Beucase of invis & prob travel ?
I don't recall ever using invisible or probability travel, but from what a few people have said they are probably #1 and #2 talents in the game.
Fela wrote: The thing is, that due to PD effectively resetting encounters mana management isn't an issue and since nothing needs reaching you (unless enforced by stupid escorts) the danger to life is minimal so far. (I suppose the restrictions FM wanted to impose on resting may also have been motivated by playing an archmage (?) )

With unresistable arcane damage there is always a completely reliable weapon (beam no less) for any thread the game might throw at you.
Ya, phase door pretty much completely allows you to determine the pace of any fight you are in. I'd say phase door is the #3 talent in the game, or maybe even #2 (over probability travel). Every time I get a good character with access to a controllable phase door, the instantly becomes about 50% easier (which is level 4 usually).

Things phase door will do to make your ass not be black, blue and bloody:
A. Extremely few npcs can open doors. If there's a room where the door isn't open, you can phase in and rest for free. This is really how an archmage is suppose to survive the prides if they haven't been focuing on major blasting spells (like inferno/huge manathrust/chain lightning).

B. Big nasty melee hitter tanking for little blasty mage where you're all lined up in a hallway? Phase the melee to where ever the hell you want and smoke that bastard mage down (in cases where the melee would kill/kill you, or you have no beam spells)

C. It's really the ultimate field control spell, outside of probability travel (they really interchange between 1/2 in use here). You can make yourself go anywhere you want (within the range [once that bug is fixed]), most any npc anywhere you want as well. You have a long duration huge corrosive vapor/inferno overlap and the boss is almost done walking out of it completely? Phase him back in that!

D. It is the ONE spell that will save your character more than any other. Even though it is a very short distance, every single dungeon except the underwater cave, and the slime pits have corridors/rooms/open areas. If you know/have an idea what is in there (because of sense/previously visited) and you've ran into trouble, PHASE there. 100% safe, guaranteed.

E. It never fails when used on you. Never. And it shouldn't. But it will NEVER fail. And the point of being EXACTLY where you want to be is what makes Teleport almost complete garbage next to it. While the only saving grace for teleport is the fact that it will travel at phase door+100 range; but the minimum range really needs to be upped. That's for a different time however.

F. If you have Sense, even at level 1, Vision 1, and Phase Door 5, you are pretty much god when it comes to what you want to do with yourself to maintain absolute safety. Towards the end of the game (the last pride usually) that I get an archmage that far, I start to impose superficial challenges on myself because it's almost gotten boring having so much knowledge. I'll do such things as 'no rest', 'no beams', 'thunderstrom only', ect.
just to make it more interesting.

G. Level 4 phase door even makes almost every escort question have a 100% completion rate, and thus, makes whoever it is have much greater power and usability than they otherwise would have if they didn't have a controllable phase door. The same goes for the merchant quest as well.

H. Automatic (almost completely free/reliable) 'save my ass' spell such called Teleport: Angwolen. Here's where phase door will save your ass and you don't even know it. In trouble? Phase away back to somewhere safe, then use the T : A spell and you're out of there, and in a town no less! The best/second best town in the game for you as well!

I. Gaining a random ring because you are an archmage from the apprentice is cool beans flavor wise, HOWEVER I have gotten the Ring of Ulmo 5 times, Ring of the Warmaster 2 times, Ring of Elemental Fury 7(!) times, and level 4 rings almost entirely the rest of the time when completing the quest with archmages. That is QUITE a ratio with really a truly major reward at the end, very early in the game as well. I don't know if it's my luck (I have gotten quite a few nature resist 20 rings as well...) but it seems excessive.

J. Manathrust is completely a cool spell, and I'm very very glad it was bumped to talent tree level 2, because it was simply too powerful at level 1. But again, with it being able to be pumped to the point of 700/800 damage just because it is unresistable is rather skewered I think, when something like Strike (a level 3 spell) isn't capable of half that usually. And ofcourse the whole beam thing with that kind of power makes lightning/bone spear look like harry potter play magic.

K. They have a terrific amount of options. And the resources to use them when needed.
Example 1: You can go my personal route of always having on these talents : (level 5's here)
Arcane Focus, Blur, Stone Skin, Feather Wind, with a Phase Door, Regeneration, Mana Flow at the ready. Once enemies are encountered and I can't dispatch them with a simple chain lightning-lightning combo, then I turn on Thunderstorm and Corrosive Vapors. If anything gets within range and I can't melee it to death then I turn on regeneration/mana flow and blast it with flame/freeze.

Example 2: The two regeneration talents can regenerate 20+ a turn for 10 turns. That's 200 free, and in mana, that's Essence of Speed, Invisibility, Probability Travel, Telepathy, Thunderstorm kind of mana. You're running one of those then you turn on the one/two regeneration abilities and you are set from the damage you cause yourself. (Note: Aren't these again, like the best sustained talents in the game/most useful for this type of character?)

Example 3: Vision, Sense, Phase Door, Inferno. Need I say more?

Example 4: See Example 3 -Phase Door +Probability Travel.

Example 5: Invisibility + Regeneration + (after regen) Kings Gift

Example 6: Don't like using sense twice per dungeon? Use Telepathy + Mana Flow! They ALMOST cancel each other out in costs (though the flow will only give you about 11 free turns).

L. Because of all of this, they are by far easy mode. They can have better defenses than a sun paladin or a fighter if they try, they can cause more ranged damage than archers and slingers (at beam, ball and clouds no less), for 50 gold they can wear whatever they want, and get 200 health. All consumable items are boosted in power greatly due to the mages' dependence on the magic stat (like 300 health difference when it comes to greater healing potions). There health REALLY isn't a concern when they can phase away in case of danger, blast multiple targets on the cheap and easy for huge damage, or go invisible for five or so turns to walk away from the danger.

M. MAGES >

N. NON-MAGES =

O. Openly Over-powered when compared to Other actors

P. Please don't change them much because they are by far the most completed and bug free class in the game. Most anyone knows how I would change them, but they really are the easiest class to play, the strongest class in options, damage, mobility, crowd control, and 1 vs X style battles.

And, I think that's about all I can come up with when it comes to why archmages are by far the easy mode of T4.
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edge2054
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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#18 Post by edge2054 »

Yup, phase door and sense. Probability Travel and Invisibility are nice but nothing beats knowing where your enemy is and being able to control the field like you can with phase door.

Also I find the Invisibility spell for mages kinda weak. Why spend talent points and the huge amount of mana it requires on something I can do with potions? Granted, mages can use invisibility like no other (vision, sense, a point in heightened senses and you don't need a light source ever again) but there's little reason to actually use the spell (no merchant challenges aside ;))

*edit* If mages do need nerfed they should be more fragile. Lower class hit points, change their defense buffs, stuff like that. I loved sorcerers in Tome 2 and they where extremely powerful but you didn't feel like a god until you found a randart that increased your life. Mages, IMO, are very much the sorcerers of tome 4, but they don't have the hit point penalty.

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#19 Post by Fela »

I'D say NOT giving them combat for 50 gold or as warrior escort reward would go a small way towards fixing them. At least for the end game, when life might matter.

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#20 Post by Zonk »

Been enjoying Archmages(although I didn't get too far in the game...the sandworm lair seems to always kill me...), and I agree the Sense+Vision + Phase Door/Teleport combo is awesome.

I don't think they should really be nerfed - I mean, this is a single player game, so having a class that's noticeably more powerful than others isn't bad, by itself(as long as it's not RIDICOLOUSLY so).
It also makes sense to me, thematically, that Mages would be the strongest adventurer, especially after a certain character level.

So I'd rather focus on improving the weak classes, like Bersekers, who seem to quite lacking in the defense department.
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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#21 Post by edge2054 »

I'd straight nerf their class life rating.

If I read this...

Code: Select all

		max_life = 90,
		life_rating = 10,
Correctly. Mages start off with 90 hit points and gain 10 hit points per level.

Which is more hit points per level then the arcane blade gains for some reason and just as much as archers, rogues, and wilders get.

Mages should live by their wits, phase door and sense should be what they get instead of hit points. Giving them these tools on top of the average life rating in the game makes them very very hard to kill.

My recommendation would be to cut their class life rating in half (which for beta 12b anyway would mean 250 fewer hit points at level 50, again if I'm understanding the system correctly).

*edit* Granted Zonk is right about the single player game thing. Just saying, if DG wants to nerf mages the place I would start would be with their hit points.

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#22 Post by darkgod »

I wont nerf them too hard but I too think they are a bit too much.
I made teleport angolwen work like recall (which will be in beta13): you dont get an instant out card, you need to wait.

I kinda agree about life rating, I'll probably reduce it (arcane blade having 9 was a bug BTW I fixed it)

I want to do something about controlled phase door but I am not sure what yet.
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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#23 Post by Zonk »

Yeah, changing the life rating makes sense, Mages can be powerful but glass cannons.
If you're doing that, what about a boost for Berserkers too? say from 12 to 13, to make up for their lower defensive capabilities(=no shield).
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Repton
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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#24 Post by Repton »

darkgod wrote: I want to do something about controlled phase door but I am not sure what yet.
What about this:

Level 3: Choose a direction -- basically, use a cone to target. The cone gets narrower (and longer) with higher levels.
Level 5: Can teleport other npcs (as now).
Level 7: Controlled phase door (like current level 5).

Getting to level 7 requires you to spend a category point, or wear an amulet of mastery..

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#25 Post by PowerWyrm »

darkgod wrote:I made teleport angolwen work like recall (which will be in beta13): you dont get an instant out card, you need to wait.
Since Teleport to Angolwen only works with no monster in LOS, this is pretty much pointless...

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#26 Post by darkgod »

No not really, this gives time to smart monsters (like bosses) to find you
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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#27 Post by Fela »

Repton wrote:
darkgod wrote: I want to do something about controlled phase door but I am not sure what yet.
What about this:

Level 3: Choose a direction -- basically, use a cone to target. The cone gets narrower (and longer) with higher levels.
Level 5: Can teleport other npcs (as now).
Level 7: Controlled phase door (like current level 5).

Getting to level 7 requires you to spend a category point, or wear an amulet of mastery..
So you're fixing this for archmages and completely screw shadowblades and arcane blades in the process?

While still powerful the spell is much less broken for melee classes, where it mainly serves for getting out of the open.
Plus they're not regenerating mana naturally, so they can not infinitely shoot once, PD, rest up, shoot once, PD...

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#28 Post by edge2054 »

PowerWyrm wrote:
darkgod wrote:I made teleport angolwen work like recall (which will be in beta13): you dont get an instant out card, you need to wait.
Since Teleport to Angolwen only works with no monster in LOS, this is pretty much pointless...
Actually powerwyrm it takes very little to break los. When I borrowed that code for a chronomancy talent I found I could duck behind a tree and cast. Ended up combining it with a stun because playing hide and seek cast wasn't what I had in mind.

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#29 Post by Repton »

Fela wrote: So you're fixing this for archmages and completely screw shadowblades and arcane blades in the process?
A fair point.. (I haven't played those classes much)

But you could just give those classes 1.4 starting mastery. It would still cost them an extra point, but that's all..

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Re: Halfway point in the game?

#30 Post by Final Master »

I REALLY think that anything greater than 1.3 mastery should ONLY be awarded (without additional points) to the specialist abilities of the class. Like 1.3 fire and 1.4 wildfire for pyromancers. 1.4 mastery is an absurd amount of mastery for a 'just cause' reason.
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