[1.5.x] Class/Race Tier List

[Mex]

Wyrmic moved down to C. They have very good movement utility but I feel that they still lack offensively/defensively and are overall a confused class with both melee/ranged options that don't necessarily have synergy. The ice wall nerf, which was necessary, removed their boring viability as a class on higher difficulties.

[SirFinbar]

By your rankings, Demonologist being B Tier really doesn't add up with the character vault...

Does nobody bother with the class because it's so weird? I'm really enjoying it, but getting wrecked pretty hard on normal. Furthest I've got is past Old Forest. I'm new though.

Demonologist Nightmare Wins: 2
http://te4.org/characters-vault?tag_nam ... monologist#

Demonologist Insane Wins: 0
http://te4.org/characters-vault?tag_nam ... monologist#

How do you explain this in regards to your ranking system?

[twas Brillig]

Probably a big factor is the number of people who have actually bought the DLC. For a class that most people don't have, that suffers in the early game, I wouldn't be surprised that even a late game powerhouse would have relatively few wins for its power. (But personally I don't think I've ever gotten a Demonologist past Dreadfell.)

[SirFinbar]

Yeah that's a good point. Didn't consider the DLC factor. Doombringer only has 5 Insane wins, and seems largely more popular.

I just think saying Demonologist will 'find Insane relatively easy to complete' is a bit rich, considering nobody has ever done it, according to the vault.

[Mex]

There are 4 Demonologist winners on Insane, you didn't check Adventure.

[SirFinbar]

Oh. I assumed this was Roguelike based.

EDIT: I've just seen at least one of those adventure characters didn't actually die, so I guess, I was wrong. I apologise

[Wokimeittes]

A quick question regarding Paradox Mages: What in particular about them, in light of their placement on the b tier, precludes them from completing madness? Looking at the class offhand, it would seem to me that they have a substantial retinue of utility available to them( with particular mention to the last two talents of the matter tree, which provide altogether a defensive barrier that can be detonated on will, a means of digging, and the vital ability to make all of their damage remove physical/magical effects), excellent defensive skills( time shield+contingency[or temporal reprieve + contingency], decomposition, reality smearing, etc.) a number of tools to manage their paradox through the flux and stasis trees, and fantasitc mobility, with no outright weaknesses save for the vulnerability to silence, so( as someone, it should be noted, who has not yet unlocked madness) I'm uncertain as to where exactly they fall short.

[nintura]

When was the last time this list was updated?

*edit. Nm, saw the edit at the bottom.

[Kuroto]

@Wokimeittes

I haven't played PM much, but I believe the consensus on why they struggle at higher difficulties is resource management. Since the nerf (after the rework), they're nearly required to take Flux, a fairly lackluster and clunky tree, to keep up their resource without risking spell fails or having weak spells.

Again, I don't actually play them, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that being their main downside

[Blakmane]

PM isn't bad at higher difficulties at all - as the guide mentions, B rank is enough to complete insane easily, and PM absolutely smashes insane. I just did an insane run with a Higher PM and didn't struggle in the slightest. I liberally used the vault, but it was not in any way essential for the build. You don't need flux. It's great, but not necessary. You do need either flux or stasis for some form of damage mitigation as your level 10 pickup.... AND absorption, so you're super category tight.

Resource management is not overly concerning with PM - the primary issue is just outputting enough single-target damage over a short time period (admittedly an issue with a lot of classes in insane+), and having a resource that gives a %failure chance (which always has unpredictable risk associated). The trick to resource management with PM is not being afraid to use rest to quickly recover paradox during long but not otherwise dangerous encounters, and leaving dangerous ones before paradox risk becomes an issue. Also, don't run too many sustains until you can handle the anomaly increase. There's some bad advice on the forums suggesting all sustains do is set a baseline paradox. This isn't true: they increase your chance of anomaly but NOT your base spellpower. This is a very bad thing.

I can't really comment on madness, but basically no class except for the outrageously good AM and of course adventurer cheese have 1.3.1 wins at this point so it's a bit moot. PM certainly has all the right tools for a madness run (escape, damage mitigation, sustain/buff removal) and there is a level 50 madness PM who hasn't completed, not sure why. Without disintegration I imagine prides/high peak might be a real struggle for them though.

[Seigard]

Would anyone care to make a nightmare version of the classes tier list?

[rambo50]

Why does everybody say Wyrmic is so bad ? I got my first and only insane victory with Wyrmic.

A little bit difficult in the begining but after lvl 20 or so it was very easy until the last level of the game.
I was incredibly tanky thanks to Antimagic/Fungus and alot of armor and 100 % stun resistance from items. You have a decent amount of utility skills. Your breaths are long range high damage aoe nukes which you can spam every turn later on. And Staticfield + Swallow makes boss killing so easy.
I played my Wyrmic as caster only until lvl 36 when I slowly focused more on melee skills which he also has pretty good ones with alot of aoe and damage.
I wasnt even shalore, I played dwarf...

Huge aoe and range, tanky, decent utility skills, alot of singletarget damage in the lategame. Really not a bad class in my opinion, but I dont think you could beat madness with it.

[stabya]

Just to mess up the list I cleared Madness with an Ogree Reaver yesterday.
Doable, but a bit harder and more fun then my boring Ogree Archmage run.
The Big fellas are a OP race put em at the top tier.

[Effigy]

Wyrmic is pretty good. I feel like the main thing it lacks is effect removal. Unless you unlock Celestial/Light or play a race with an effect remover, you're relying entirely on your inscriptions to handle negative effects and on equipment to remove positive effects from enemies. This is ok on Normal and Nightmare, but for Insane+ it puts you at a real disadvantage.

Stabya, maybe you're just really good at ToME, but I have a hard time believing you cleared Madness/RL on a melee Reaver with no deaths. You don't even have Bloodcasting and only 1/5 Vimsense. If it is legit, kudos to you.

[stabya]

Stabya, maybe you're just really good at ToME, but I have a hard time believing you cleared Madness/RL on a melee Reaver with no deaths. You don't even have Bloodcasting and only 1/5 Vimsense. If it is legit, kudos to you.

If need bloodcasting ur tactics/gearing are wrong.
You can have more then 1 Vimense early, but only if u take the Points away in Town Before u learn a new skill.
1 Point in Vimense is more then enough to keep Vim at max later in the game