Tannen's tower rewrite

[HousePet]

Anyone can work at improving their magic, its in the level up screen.
But Antimagic? Sorry, you can't use arcane equipment anymore, and Shaloren can't use racials anymore. Hardly inclusive.

[Doctornull]

Low-level as in lower echelon.

Yes, those are the ones I was talking about.

That being said, is there a piece of lore I've not found which does document initiation into Zigur? That might sway my opinion on them.

Sure. The Story of My Salvation discusses a woman who was beaten, tortured, and mutilated by an angry mob of Zigur followers, then rescued from them by the future Zigur leader. Not healed of her mutilation, of course, but "rescued" and allowed to live her life serving Zigur. The implication seemed to be that she's currently suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Magic is something you have to be born with (I think. It's not made too clear to me), antimagic you can work at it.

That's demonstrably untrue. Anyone can rescue a magical escort and learn genuine spellcasting. Anyone can pick up the right kind of wand and learn a genuine spell.

Again, you're free to have whatever opinions you want, but you really ought to brush up on facts.

And, in the interests of total fairness, each of us has probably murdered tens or hundreds of thousands of people throughout various playthoughs. So once you get right down to it, we're the number two killer in Eyal, right after the Spellblaze. And if you count player characters as a whole, we are far and away the number one cause of death for anything.

Good, you have understood why I was refuting your assertion that an Arcane PC is somehow worse than any other kind of PC. They're obviously not.

[Red]

That was Hogolus, not me. I am well aware we play as murderous monsters-I personally support saving the lumberjack village, basking in glory for a few minutes, then slaughtering the lot of them. (Very fun as a Yeek, since you're basically a teddy bear.)

And that's actually a really poor example. That shows some serious compassion from the Lord Protector right there, shows a side of her that isn't extremism. (And is quite probably propaganda, but let's assume for a few seconds it's 100% true.) The crowd, while obviously antimagic in fervor, was not of Zigur. The Zigur sailed in and saved her ass, actually giving her a chance. It was ordinary people who mutilated her...

...

Wait a minute-my whole arguement has been based on ordinary people helping themselves! I forgot that ordinary people (like everything else in this lore) are HORRIBLE! You know what, demons have the right idea. Burn everything, then kill [Father] and let Urhok burn with it. Give me a moment to finally make a damn signature.

[Doctornull]

Wait a minute-my whole arguement has been based on ordinary people helping themselves! I forgot that ordinary people (like everything else in this lore) are HORRIBLE!

The sort of people who decide to define burning someone alive as "just helping myself" are indeed horrible, yes. And this is why I do not give much weight to your "just helping myself" argument. It's a really poor rationalization for beating up someone else to make you feel better about your own problems, without actually solving any of your problems.

That's not the average citizen of the towns show in the actual game, though. It's just Zigur.

Ordinary people don't attack you when they're out patrolling. Ordinary people don't burn you at the stake when you show up in their towns.

[Red]

Ordinary people join Zigur. Ordinary people hate mages enough to make Angolwen neccessarry.

And since when is not attacking us a good thing from a moral viewpoint? If anything, that makes them worse people for passively enabling us! We're monsters, and they just smile at us and sell us our runes or randarts or what-have-you.

Also to note, they might be. (And, if the lore was written recently, someone literally has to be.) There's a distinct difference between attacking a minor talent woman who can barely defend herself and a mage who can fry a troll in a flash of lightning, or an alchemist who could depopulate the village with three well-placed bombs.

[Doctornull]

Ordinary people join Zigur. Ordinary people hate mages enough to make Angolwen neccessarry.

No, joining a militant hate-group and turning yourself into a half-fungal monstrosity makes you not ordinary.

And since when is not attacking us a good thing from a moral viewpoint? If anything, that makes them worse people for passively enabling us! We're monsters, and they just smile at us and sell us our runes or randarts or what-have-you.

That's the most absurdly masochistic teen wangst argument I've seen all week.

Look, if you think you're a douche, that's up to you. It might be true, or you might make it true by thinking of yourself that way.

But some of us play heroes.

[Red]

Heroes only have body counts in four digits or higher when they're from Warhammer 40k, and that's only because grasshoppers have four digit body counts in that setting. But in all seriousness, no in ToME plays a hero. You play as someone who just so happens to murder the "right" people.

And where the hell does Zigur get recruits from, then? They don't look to have a stable breeding population, nor do I expect them to have the lifespan needed to actually bear that many kids, and somehow I feel people like the Lord Protector aren't interested in having kids.

Finally, fungal monstrosity? Fungus is awesome! Better than inviting stone vines to crawl around inside your skin, perverting earth itself into a mockery of plant life. And yes, I am aware that Stone Wardens are part wilder. The other half is magic, so antimagic still counts against them.

[Doctornull]

Heroes only have body counts

... in any goddamn video game. Guess where Eyal is standing?

And where the hell does Zigur get recruits from, then?

Abnormal people, hateful people, resentful impoverished losers. Same as any other hate group.

[Red]

Deus Ex and the fact that you can pull off a pacifist runthrough being...
Psychonauts being...
VVVVV being...
Any non military victory in a 4X being...
There are a lot of videogames where you can avoid killing and sometimes even hurting anyone and still be a big ol' hero. Oh, the biggest example...
Trauma Center. You're a surgeon, and you spend the whole game doing nothing but saving people. Body count of NEGATIVE FIVE HUNDRED!

Okay, let's get one thing straight here. Zigur is not a hate group in the same way something like the Westboro Baptist Church is a hate group. (Also, - those guys.) They are a hate group against a group that has magical powers that sets them as far more powerful than others, that has and continues to be abused in horrible fashions and caused a minor apocalypse. Those are some rather compelling reasons to be pissed at something.

Hell, the people of Derth (who you claim to be good people) specifically ask after Zigur for help!

[Doctornull]

Oh christ, can you seriously not understand that having a high body count is very common in video games?

Are you seriously asserting that the body count in ToME is somehow unusual?

Or are you just pretending to not get the point? If so, be aware that that playing dumb is not a useful way to refute a point.

Okay, let's get one thing straight here. Zigur is not a hate group in the same way something like the Westboro Baptist Church is a hate group.

Zigur is worse, because Westboro aren't murderers who burn people alive on a regular basis.

Zigur is a radical hate group -- it absolutely meets the definition of the phrase, and the spirit of the definition.

They are a hate group against a group that has magical powers that sets them as far more powerful than others, that has and continues to be abused in horrible fashions and caused a minor apocalypse. Those are some rather compelling reasons to be pissed at something.

Nobody is justified in murdering innocent strangers due to being "pissed at someone".

You're trying to use the PMS defense, and that's just not a good defense, especially not in light of what the Ashes DLC reveals about the Spellblaze.

[Red]

Oh, high body counts are very common in videogames. Heroism is not as common, if you care to think about it. I am fully prepared to call Kirby, the little pink puffball from Popstar, a mass murdering pyshcopath and the real villain of his whole damn series for all his killing.

And as a general rule, when people start raising the dead to attack the living, it is considered okay to attack them. The antimagic sentiment is there because magic has caused massive damage and continues to cause damage. The Shade at Kor'Pul, The Master, the Grand Corruptor, the list goes on. No, innocents should not be attacked in the slightest-they didn't harm anyone, who cares if they have magic? However, people attack them because all they know about magic is that the most dangerous people in the entire world use it, and are using it against them. If you'd lived in Last Hope, under the shadow of The Master and the entire damn cult in the spellscar, magic would be something you had quite clearly seen lead to pain and death for the good and victory for the evil.

I only said pissed at someone because I'm not taking this fully seriously, DoctorNull. But there is no real arguement to say antimagic, both the abilities and the belief, is wrong. There is every arguement in the world to say it goes too far, every arguement in the world to say anyone who believes in antimagic should also believe strongly in moderation and due process, but when you get right down to it a whole lot mor evil comes from magic than from antimagic. Antimagic does two things-harms magic users, and makes you more survivable.

Also, I really don't know much about what Ashes says on the spellblaze. However, it also doesn't strictly matter for the sake of this arguement, seeing as how the ordinary people we speak of are even more in the dark about it. All they know is that magic and mages caused it.

[Doctornull]

No, innocents should not be attacked in the slightest-they didn't harm anyone, who cares if they know physics? However, people attack them because all they know about physicists is that the most dangerous bombs in the entire world use it, and are using it against them.

Therefore attacking physicists is justified in your worldview?

I only said pissed at someone because I'm not taking this fully seriously, DoctorNull.

Ah, of course you weren't.

But there is no real arguement to say antimagic, both the abilities and the belief, is wrong.

That's entirely wrong.

Hate groups aren't bad because they "go too far", but rather because the foundation of their entire enterprise is bad.

There is no healthy dosage for hate, violence, and setting innocent strangers on fire.

[Red]

Knowing physics and aquiring the materials to build a bomb are very different things.
Having magic and being able to kill people with a thought and a wave of the staff are different, but very closely related things.

And I think I actually see why the argeument is going nowhere. I just wrote a bit asking you to explain why antimagic is inherently wrong and convinced myself that antimagic is inherently wrong as a pure concept, since magic is nothing more than a tool and it's only the people that use it. So yes, antimagic is wrong. Magic is fine.

The issue is, people aren't, and more to the point, a hell of a lot of mages aren't. Antimage sentiment makes a lot more sense. To draw another parrelel (one that's a bit more moderate, I hope) magic users are like an enemy army to a lot of people. There are some people at the top who are right bastards and deserve to get offed with extreme prejiduce, like The Master, and some soldiers who likewise deserve it, like the blood mages. But a lot of them are just fighting against you because they have to-the mages of Angolwen, for example. They're fine people and the only reason they would have to fight is because they've been "drafted" into the magic army.

The trick being, then, to direct the anger towards who needs it. However, people can't draw that distinction because their friends and family are being killed off. It's easy for you or I to say "Don't fight that mage, he's good. Fight that mage, he's evil" because we sit here safe and warm behind our screens. For some of these people, their lives have been under siege from day one by magic, or at the very least marred by tragedy because of magic. They're not right, but all they know is that magic hurts, and they are not physically capable of knowing more than that. They've not had the chance.

If anything, the antimage sentiment is like that of Director Piggot's. Difference being, what she hated, she hated in a civilized world where she could work peacefully towards controlling it. The citizens of Eyal do not.

Edit: Forgot to say, this is a forum about Tannen's Tower. Perhaps we should start a new topic on another forum? And maybe wait a day to keep replying to let other people chime in?

[Doctornull]

And I think I actually see why the argeument is going nowhere. I just wrote a bit asking you to explain why antimagic is inherently wrong and convinced myself that antimagic is inherently wrong as a pure concept, since magic is nothing more than a tool and it's only the people that use it. So yes, antimagic is wrong. Magic is fine.

Great, then the argument is over.

Edit: Forgot to say, this is a forum about Tannen's Tower. Perhaps we should start a new topic on another forum? And maybe wait a day to keep replying to let other people chime in?

If you want, but the discussion is pretty much over if we agree on the major point.

[Robsoie]

I wish there was an Angolwen destruction quest for antimagic players as a counterpart of the Zigur destruction quest that exist for magic players, it would make a lot of sense in the context because Angolwen is way much more dangerous for the world than Zigur is.

After the mages decided to hide after nearly destroying the whole world with their spellblaze, Angolwen still trained and produced mages like Urkis, Tannen, Argoniel and Elandar that since then had been a giant threat to the whole world, without even mentionning the Inquisitor and Grand Corruptor that had links with them before going their separate ways.

And it's very important to notice that the powers ruling Angolwen have done -nothing- to stop those mages, it's only the actual hero of the campaign that does
Without even mentionning that overpowered "i heal +10000 every few turns" cheating Linaniil that wield a power that is not made for anyone on Eyal, everyone seems to be waiting for her to go insane and go on a killing spree once to the power taking over her mind.

Having Zigur launching an assault over Angolwen would make sense then, especially after it's revealed that the endgame sorcerers that nearly killed the world if it wasn't for you stopping them are coming from Angolwen