Luminous Horrors too tough at low levels?

[bricks]

I've always had a problem with the Luminous Horrors that tend to show up in droves at the bottom of Nur, but not so much that I couldn't tackle it with a player character in the upper teens. I just recently had my first death on a wyrmic to Luminous Horrors - I think I was killed in two shots. I think the skills synergize way too well at low levels - they have a shield and a heal, and they essentially have two direct-hit attacks. Maybe I'm approaching them in the wrong way, but I can't really outpace the healing or the damage of three Luminous Horrors. I tried using some Antimagic skills, but even then I really just saved myself a few turns before getting blasted. Given the option I would just run away, but without teleport I'm really just delaying the inevitable. If I had a way to dispel the shields I might be able to take them out. Positioning is already tricky since the area I'm in is pretty open; I was able to take out a pack earlier because I caught them at a corner.

If I had to suggest a nerf, I'd be for reducing the number of skills that Luminous Horrors get at levels < 30, or reducing the base talent level of the more frustrating skills. They all start at level 3, which is pretty high. In my experience Luminous Horrors are pretty balanced in the end-game, so I don't think anything needs to change there.

[jenx]

I agree, but I have learned to beat them with most characters by watching carefully their talent cooldowns. The trick is to get them when both shield and providence have recently ended. This can take several cycles to get them both off at the same time. They are then quite weak. The key is also not to stand still, as searing light from 2-3 horrors over 4 turns does tons of damage.

But as you don't have teleportation, I'm not sure you can use this strategy. I think they should be nerfed early on.

[edge2054]

Next beta many new egos are being introduced that will help the player deal with shields, magical timed effects, and spells in general.

I also plan to rewrite luminous and radiant horrors at some point. I'll look at their talent levels though.

[bricks]

Cool, looking forward to it. One thing I forgot to use was Burrow, which would have made escaping possible.

[Angilion]

On one game, I encountered 9 Luminous Horrors on L3 of Lake Nur. 3 packs of 3. It was a bit silly. I made it with teleporting and being lucky. Rush in, kill one, teleport out, rest, repeat. The luck being in not teleporting from one pack to another.

[omni]

You know, I may regret saying this, and very well may be alone in this sentiment.

I like luminous horrors being a real pain. I'm a decent fan of horror type monsters where they are. As soon as one pops up on the screen I sit up in my chair and pay attention, most horrors are literally scary.

Giving the player more answers sounds awesome, but please don't declaw the buggers.

[bricks]

I dunno. What I find compelling about roguelikes is the diversity of strengths and counters, and how these interact with the player's available choices and the setting. Luminous horrors have pretty much no counters, and ToME's classes generally lack the type of utility skills needed to take down "paladin"-type enemies. The Weirdling Beast is in a similar category, because he can do damn near anything. It feels like it just makes the game arbitrarily more tedious, since I can, of course, just skip getting the fortress or wait until I reach a level where I won't get vaporized by laser monsters. Atatmathon is an equally mystifying design choice from my perspective, but I guess some people like that stuff.

[donkatsu]

Just like anything else that lacks stun immunity, luminous horrors are countered really really hard by stun. Just wait until Providence is down, stun them, and they're quite helpless. Don't fight them in the open; lure them around a corner so that only one of them can see you at a time. If you fight three of them at the same time, then yes they'll kill you quickly. That applies to a lot of things.

If stun ever gets nerfed again then yeah, maybe we ought to take a look at luminous horrors, but as they are they're not really dangerous or even difficult to kill, as long as you approach them intelligently. I like that much better than steamrolling over hordes of rats and jellies.

[Toneone]

Oh man, i just lost a very good char to those buggers.

Had a LV 17 Bulwark going really great, and i though that was the run to make it.
I was so freaking carefull and whatnot.

Well, LV2 of the lake gave me a trio of LV20 luminous horrors right of the bat and it took me two lives to beat em.
And guess what?
Shortly after i found another trio and my char was toast.

I just could not deal with their shields, and them blasting me with magic rays and whatnot while i tried to run around till the shield was down.
My attack skills were able to take down one when his shield fell but three was too much.
And i pretty much had to go all out to take one down.

Dunno what to think about em really.
Its good to have dangerous things in a game like this, but their shield just feels a bit too good imho.

[edge2054]

I reduced Luminous Horrors Barrier and Healing Light base talent levels from 3 to 1 but gave them better scaling (so at higher levels they'll still have good sized heals and shields) and damage affinity for light and fire (at 50%).

I also reduced the talent levels on the Bloated Horrors offensive talents from 4 to 2 (but again improved scaling so at higher levels they'll still be dangerous). This should lower the power on their confusion as well as their damage output by quite a bit when encountered before Lake of Nur. Note that the level range on Lake of Nur coupled with the new scaling means that Bloated Horrors may be about the same for any players that do this zone around level 20. That does not apply to Luminous Horrors who have a higher starting level range then Bloated Horrors.

[PureQuestion]

I'm not sure how I feel about the damage affinity; on the one hand, it's cool, but on the other hand, it means even with maxed wildfire Pyromancers can't touch them, which is... urgh.

[snoop]

I was really worried about the luminous horrors with my Sun Paladin since they're immune to my usual arsenal of light and fire. They were tough enough but I did OK by keeping my own shields and healing up, Rushing in to range (thanks trusty boots!) and beating on them with my melee talents. I could generally get through their shields with an Assault and then the rest of the way was pretty easy; they don't stand up well to physical damage.