Attack speed with two weapons?

[Tom]

Hello!

I have two daggers wielded.
One with 100% Attack speed and one with 90% Attack speed.
Does this count as 95% or what?

Tom

[bricks]

I *think* it uses the attack speed of your slowest weapon, which is really a shame. Arithmetic average is the most obvious replacement for this mechanic; but not the best, I think. Consider the following:

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You have two weapons.  One has an attack speed of A = 100%, the other has an attack speed of B = 80%.  Assuming these weapons act alone, what is the most appropriate "overall" or "average" attack speed?

In 8 turns, weapon 1 hits 8/A = 8 times.
In 8 turns, weapon 2 hits 8/B = 10 times.

Or, if hits were dealt on the same action, you could instead attack (8 + 10)/2 = 9 times, hitting once with each weapon.  This is equivalent to 8/9 = 88.9% attack speed.  Generalizing to any attacks speed A and B over X turns, we get

X/[(X/A + X/B)/2]=2/(1/A + 1/B) attack speed

which is the harmonic average. 

Interestingly this makes wielding two 90% weapons slightly less valuable than wielding a 100% and 80%. Not necessarily a bad thing. This relationship shows up in physics all the time.

[Sirrocco]

The idea that I could swing my sword faster by wielding a speedy dagger in my offhand seems... odd.

[bricks]

The idea that I could swing my sword faster by wielding a speedy dagger in my offhand seems... odd.

I guess, but there is currently no incentive to wield just a one-handed weapon. Attack speed egos are awfully rare anyway.

[Aquillion]

The idea that I could swing my sword faster by wielding a speedy dagger in my offhand seems... odd.

It makes sense to me. Look at it like this: Combat in ToME is abstracted to an extent. But with a fast dagger, you're able to create more chances to attack with your sword -- your dagger slashes in, lightning fast, and whether you hit or miss this creates an opening for you to swing in with your sword more rapidly than you would otherwise.

Or something along those lines.

In general, I think it would be best to use the speed of both weapons somehow, anyway, rather than just the slowest. It makes no intuitive sense that my lightning-quick dagger's speed advantage is totally negated by the slower sword in my other hand, but that's the situation we have currently.

[bricks]

It makes sense to me. Look at it like this: Combat in ToME is abstracted to an extent. But with a fast dagger, you're able to create more chances to attack with your sword -- your dagger slashes in, lightning fast, and whether you hit or miss this creates an opening for you to swing in with your sword more rapidly than you would otherwise.

Yeah, if you follow my little derivation, this is exactly the logic.

[marvalis]

Weighing the speed based on the damage would seem logical.

dagger average damage 20 speed 0.8
sword average damage 30 speed 1

//calculate total sum of damage from both weapons taking into account attack speed as if the weapons have speed 1
//dagger does 20% more damage because speed is 0.8
//normal_damage = damage*1+(1-attack_speed)
//total_normal_damage = normal_damage(main hand)+normal_damage(offhand)

20*1.2+30*1=54

//compare the difference between total damage and normalized damage to get actual weapon speed.
//total_base_damage=get_average_damage(main hand)+get_average_damage(offhand)
//normalized weapon speed = 2 - total_normal_damage / total_base_damage
54/50=1.08
2-1.08=0.92


/edit: fixed
/edit again there is a mistake somewhere in my formula :/
/edit once again: My original formula was right and my 'fix' was wrong >_>.

[tiger_eye]

ah, I see, if we average speeds, then the slower weapon will get a bonus by attacking more than it otherwise would.

So, I suggest if weapons have two different speeds, give the faster weapon a *chance* to receive a second attack. Applying this to bricks example, weapon 1 (speed = 1) would attack 8 times in 8 turns, and weapon 2 (speed 0.8 ) would attack at least 8 times and, on average, attack 10 times.

The extra hit percentage would be:

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extra hit chance = 100 * (slow_speed - fast_speed) / fast_speed

so for the example:

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100 * (1 - 0.8) / 0.8 = 25%

[marvalis]

wel chance =/= average
Then you have to store the difference between attack speed in a variable and add do this every strike so that every x strikes you do a double strike (as if you attacked with that weapon at its speed).

/edit: Since attack speed are round you can just give the dagger a dual strike every 1/main_speed-off_speed turns
if your main hand weapon is faster, then every x turns the offhand does not do damage.
suppose main hand 0.9 off-hand 1.0:
1-0.9=0.1
10/0.1=10
=> every 10 swings no offhand damage.

[bricks]

I mostly like Tigereye's idea, but the problem I see is that it makes skills that use bump attacks as the base act oddly. Either your 120% damage attack talent has a chance to deal an additional 120% weapon hit, or you lose out on damage by using these talents with lower attack speed weapons.

Since my suggestion is a little odd for standard behavior, why not tie it into dual-weapon training? In addition to the damage bonus, your attack speed is increased by 10-100% of the average attack speed bonus for your two weapons. Standard or harmonic average would both work.