More thoughts on improving the endgame experience

[Lyoncet]

While doing a few more runs through ToME, I've once again run into that experience that the game is great, but it becomes a slog at the last stretch. YMMV on exactly where the grind sets in; I don't personally have a problem with the Orc patrols, but rather with how long and samey the Prides are. So here's what I've been tossing around in my head. I'm not familiar with the engine, but I believe it should be pretty doable. (Not to say it wouldn't be a lot of work – just that I imagine it's possible!)

Give the player a choice as to which Prides to take on, and force the endgame after two. (You have a ticking timebomb in the plot, so forcing the engagement is easy story-wise.) Alter the spawns in High Peak to reflect the Prides the player has wiped out. That a) cuts down on the tedium, b) adds variety to the endgame, and c) allows the player to tailor the endgame experience to an extent. It also lets players strategize a bit, in that if there's a particular type of Orc they're less fond of fighting, they can take it on directly ahead of time to keep it from showing up in the deadlier High Peak. Maybe for good measure, you could throw in unique rewards for each Pride. Maybe a mix of stat-ups akin to the Elixir quests, loot rooms, unique abilities, etc.

I've also had the thought of alternate routes that could allow players to backdoor into High Peak, doing a different (adequately difficulty) dungeon to skip part of High Peak. Although you'd probably want to have a repeat of the Orbs of Command to unlock any alternate, since that mechanic probably shouldn't be skippable. It might be nice to throw in a Demon-themed dungeon that could be run in place of one Pride, which would add more variety and could cut down on the number of Demons that show up in High Peak.

The idea isn't to make the endgame easier, just to make it more fun and less grindy. (I wouldn't want High Peak or a back-door route to have fewer enemies just because of the lower diversity.) I think this would accomplish the goal in a way that plays to the strengths of the Roguelike genre by allowing more player choice and variety in their playthroughs.

Taking on the Prides could also diminish the strength/number/enemy variety of patrols, but like I said, I don't see that as as big an issue as the dungeons. If others feel they're problematic, though, that's certainly a dynamic that could be introduced!

What do people think?

[HousePet]

From the lore notes, there seems to be a bit of an uneasy peace / Mexican standoff between the Prides.
So taking out one Pride home would drastically destabilise the system and could make existing tensions flare into outright warfare.

After you kill one Pride leader, you are sent to Eruan and the events that follow make the Orcs pretty inconsequential to the story (except that they have the keys).

So how about if you attack one Pride then do the Eruan arc, you return to discover that one of the remaining Pride leaders has taken over the other two and is laying siege to the High Peak.
After the Eruan arc, the Sorcerers have no use for the Prides, and the Pride leaders already know they are being used. They sort of say they aren't acting on it because of the other Prides. Once there is only 1 Pride leader, they would deal with those meddling Sorcerers.

[bpat]

I don't think any major changes are needed here. Maybe do something to differentiate the layouts of Gorbat and Vor Pride but Grushnak and Rak'Shor are unique enough. The Prides go by way faster than High Peak anyway, and they're usually fun and reasonably challenging zones.

[Lyoncet]

From the lore notes, there seems to be a bit of an uneasy peace / Mexican standoff between the Prides.
So taking out one Pride home would drastically destabilise the system and could make existing tensions flare into outright warfare.

After you kill one Pride leader, you are sent to Eruan and the events that follow make the Orcs pretty inconsequential to the story (except that they have the keys).

So how about if you attack one Pride then do the Eruan arc, you return to discover that one of the remaining Pride leaders has taken over the other two and is laying siege to the High Peak.
After the Eruan arc, the Sorcerers have no use for the Prides, and the Pride leaders already know they are being used. They sort of say they aren't acting on it because of the other Prides. Once there is only 1 Pride leader, they would deal with those meddling Sorcerers.

Very nice insights! It does seem like this would be easy to fit into the existing lore. Although I guess the Scourge of the West deal would be less dramatic if they just took out two prides and the Sunwell mopped up everyone else as the remaining Prides tore themselves apart.

I don't think any major changes are needed here. Maybe do something to differentiate the layouts of Gorbat and Vor Pride but Grushnak and Rak'Shor are unique enough. The Prides go by way faster than High Peak anyway, and they're usually fun and reasonably challenging zones.

I think part of it is the layout, but I also think part of the reason things seem to drag (at least for me) is that you spend so long just fighting Orcs. Sure, they have different flavors, but you've already spent a long time fighting all of them since Reknor, which I think contributes a lot to the sameyness. It would go a log way to liven things up if I could, say, substitute an experience like Valley of the Moon, or a place with a unique mechanic like the Shadow Crypt, or an unusual zone experience like Last Hope Graveyard, or just anything to advance the story without running yet another dungeon full of orcs with the mindset of "move from A to B killing everything."

I donno. Maybe it's just me. But I get the sense that other people feel the same way about the endgame.

[HousePet]

I wasn't suggesting you only beat up two Prides. I was suggesting that after defeating one and coming back later, you have to fight the other three at the same time, but only with one leader.

[emblempride]

I don't think being forced to skip two zones or any kind of backdoor solution, even if saturated with enemies, really fixes the core issue of monotony. Like bpat I would much prefer making the zone layouts more unique, but I do kind of like HP's idea of logically moving the Orcs' story through gameplay. Different effects depending on the order you beat the Prides/Eruan, stuff like that. Fighting one massive, mixed up Pride (preferably with a second chance to respawn some of the unique Pride bosses like the ones that got moved to Rak'shor) sounds pretty cool, or having to deal with the remaining Orc Pride as you go through the Tunnels/High Peak, finding the leader on a random floor of the Peak or something.