Switching talents between shield offence and shield defense

[Strongpoint]

I think that bullwarks have no "the best shield users" feeling. Mostly because their only unique shield focused tree (shield defence) is not that good. I think it can be fixed by remixing shield offense and shield defence talents. Obviously they'll need renaming.

Currently we have

Shield offence > Shield Pummel, Riposite, Shield slam, Assault
Shield defence > Shield wall, Repulsion, Shield Expertise, Last stand

I suggest to use a different scheme

Renamed shield offence (available for bulwark, wyrmic, arcance blade, sun paladin) > Shield Pummel, Repulsion, Shield Expertise, Shield Slam
Renamed shield defence (bulwark exclusive) > Shield wall, Riposite, Last stand, Assault

With this change bullwarks will be the class with the best block and only one with a powerful assault talent

It is a nerf of arcane blade, wyrmic and sun paladin but those classes have enough ways to deal damage without assault.

[astralInferno]

I dont approve of removing riposte from availability. Without it, shields go from bad to useless, imo,

[Sheila]

I don't agree with this. "Best shield user" is a very incorrect and dated statement to make, Bulwarks in their current state are a candidate for "worst class in the game", although archer may or may not take that spot
Repulsion and Last Stand are both garbage that need to be reworked, and Shield Wall is a skill that needs some work to be less impactful on mobs and more impactful on players.
Agree with Astral; Riposte is currently pretty necessary for shield play, and I don't see the point in hitting 4 classes randomly (you forgot demonologist!) to buff a class that straight-up needs a complete rework. Besides, shuffling bad talents around won't make Bulwark good and it'll make others worse.

[bpat]

Riposte's partial block counterstrike should be an innate aspect of shields rather than a talent. And Wyrmic and Demonologist are already mediocre enough that they doesn't need this random nerf.

The problem is that Shield Defense is awful aside from Shield Wall which isn't even that good. Shuffling bad talents around doesn't make them less bad.

[HousePet]

"Best shield user" is a very incorrect and dated statement to make,

I suspect that would be what they were getting at with:

I think that bullwarks have no "the best shield users" feeling.

[Sheila]

"Best shield user" is a very incorrect and dated statement to make,

I suspect that would be what they were getting at with:

I think that bullwarks have no "the best shield users" feeling.

I mean it maybe used to be true, way back.
Thanks for your useless nitpicking, comment-baiting and unhelpful shitposting as usual it's obvious you have no intention other than to pick fights at this point.
If you played half as much as you talk, maybe you'd know what you're talking about most of the time.

[HousePet]

lol You mad?
Stop flirting, this is a serious forum.

If I was comment baiting I would have pointed out that you didn't post an alternative fix. (Not that you really can until Block is fixed up.)
I actually just thought you must have misread the OP, since you said you don't agree and then agreed with their premise.

[Sheila]

lol You mad?
Stop flirting, this is a serious forum.

If I was comment baiting I would have pointed out that you didn't post an alternative fix. (Not that you really can until Block is fixed up.)
I actually just thought you must have misread the OP, since you said you don't agree and then agreed with their premise.

Yes block needs fixing, and there's no real fix for bulwark short of reworking which is what I said, because it's an awkward combination of weak and non-synergizing talent trees that falls off by midgame shuffling bad talents around won't make the class better and it'll make others worse. I don't agree with anything pointed in the OP and I made that clear, I agreed with Astral since riposte is currently vital to shield play, I also agree with bpat in that it should be part of shields instead of a talent.
You sure didn't post any alternative fixes or said anything useful for the thread though, just came in here to troll. I honestly think you gather whatever you want from posts as it suits you and your strawmen.

lol You mad?
this is a serious forum.

The quality of your posts summarized in a few words. Thanks for showing everyone how much of a clown you are.

Not all ideas are good nor should they be used, even if people like you are fine with cluttering the game with bad design and terrible ideas just because they can. You honestly have no idea what does or doesn't need to be done most of the time, or how it would affect the game as a whole or past normal/adventure, you're generally intolerable and go out of your way to troll, so it's honestly not worth interacting with you.

[HousePet]

I'm still not sure if you misread the OP, or whether your response just lacked clarity in the way you said you disagreed and then went into detail about how you agreed with them.
But apparently badmouthing me is the most important thing in this thread.
I'm standing by "You mad".

[Razakai]

Shields probably need quite a big rework in general. I tried via the Bastion addon but still fell a bit short I think. Can definitely agree with baselining the partial block riposte effect though. Baselining Spectral Shield would be a good idea too. But in general Bulwark needs some better unique talents and trees to compete, at the moment Shield Defense is their only unique thing and it's a terrible tree.

[Sheila]

I'm still not sure if you misread the OP, or whether your response just lacked clarity in the way you said you disagreed and then went into detail about how you agreed with them.
But apparently badmouthing me is the most important thing in this thread.
I'm standing by "You mad".

It's not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension the thread is about shuffling talents around in an attempt to make bulwark better and that's what I disagree with, not about a statement that bulwarks suck.
Instead of latching onto a single part of a post, taking it out of context and then making incomplete responses/arguments like you always do, you could've simply replied to the thread with your ideas, but that's clearly not what you came in here to do, as shown by your trollish behavior.
That said, I'm done interacting with you and it'd be nice if you didn't go out of your way to take shots at me.

[Strongpoint]

It's not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension the thread is about shuffling talents around in an attempt to make bulwark better and that's what I disagree with, not about a statement that bulwarks suck.

In fact... It is not what I meant. Not at all. It is absurd to assume that shuffling talents can make some class stronger

I actually want to nerf other shield users who have many nice tricks and can do fine without best shield talents. Worried that other classes will be nerfed to much? Give them something compensate. But, IMO bullwarks must be the best shield users and have exclusive access to the best shield attack.

Sure, giving bullwarks a talent that is even better than assault is another way to do it... But I am not a big fan of buff, buff and buff style of changes.

[Sheila]

It's not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension the thread is about shuffling talents around in an attempt to make bulwark better and that's what I disagree with, not about a statement that bulwarks suck.

In fact... It is not what I meant. Not at all. It is absurd to assume that shuffling talents can make some class stronger

I actually want to nerf other shield users who have many nice tricks and can do fine without best shield talents. Worried that other classes will be nerfed to much? Give them something compensate. But, IMO bullwarks must be the best shield users and have exclusive access to the best shield attack.

Sure, giving bullwarks a talent that is even better than assault is another way to do it... But I am not a big fan of buff, buff and buff style of changes.

My bad then! But from the way your post is worded the focus seems to be on improving bulwark rather than what happens to the rest
There's honestly no reason to nerf these classes though bulwark won't be the best shield user just because they have assault/riposte to themselves. Like I said they're one of the worst classes in the game currently and they don't have much going for them. Block is already pretty bad in its current state and Riposte is pretty necessary for anyone who uses it at all, without that it will pretty much be garbage and not worth using, at which point why are you even using a shield? Making it available only to bulwark is a really poor move. The tree is supposed to have a synergy anyone with a shield can take advantage of.
The whole class is a cesspool of trees that don't mix well or aren't particularly powerful (some are, like battle tactics, but bulwark is so weak that it kind of needs it to scrape by). Bulwark in its current state won't improve until its given a full makeover, and I'm not a fan of never nerfing anything either but it doesn't make sense to nerf classes that don't need it just so that one of the worst in the game can be minimally better off.
There are things that need nerfing, but it most definitely is not Shield Offense or any of these classes. It's arguable in the case of sun paladin where the brainless defense mechanics like Retribution make the game easier, but it's not so powerful that it needs a big nerf either

[HousePet]

It's not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension the thread is about shuffling talents around in an attempt to make bulwark better and that's what I disagree with, not about a statement that bulwarks suck.

Umm yeah, but when you put 'I disagree' and 'Bulwarks are crap' on the same line, how is anyone supposed to know that you are disagreeing about something else? We just needed a little clarification, not verbal diarrhea.

After some consideration, I think the suggestion over all was good. However the base effect of Riposte needs to be inherent to Block. Other classes can get away with not having the scaling part.

[Strongpoint]

However the base effect of Riposte needs to be inherent to Block. Other classes can get away with not having the scaling part.

Yep. It is a nice solution

Nice way to compensate the proposed nerf to shield offence users and buff bulwark is making shields better for everyone, even classes that have no shield related trees but I have no ideas