Another Saw Wheels change

[Zeyphor]

I think saw wheels is too powerful in its current state against player characters, not only does saw wheels do way more damage on deactivation than any other talent that sawbutchers gets, but deactivating it and getting that weapon damage is a free action too! its just crazy

edit: getting rid of the bonus damage from battlefield will NOT be good enough, you need to get rid of the gigantic free hit when saw wheels ends, which is humongous in comparison to all of their other moves except punishment, which is also huge! at level 6.5 WITHOUT battlefield management, saw wheels could do a free hit for 214% weapon damage with both saws, and THEN 162% weapon damage with both saws with spinal break AND slow you by 52% and remove a physical sustain all in the same single turn! 214+162=376(thats only on normal!) saw wheels+spinal breaker is even stronger than a flurry of the same level and its hard to stop them from reaching you too, because until they reach you they have +556% movespeed for a total of 656% movespeed! do you really think you're gonna get away from that unless you can pin/sleep/time prison/stone wall them from range without projectiles? of course not!

however adding the charges to saw wheels is a good idea, but it still won't fix the above problem because the enemy can still get the initial hit on you, for example, if the enemy didn't spawn in a chest

I think saw wheels needs this change:
revert saw wheels back to the embers 1.0.1 version, THEN remove the weapon damage component and replace that with physical damage based on physical power(roundhouse kick, but with no knockback and less damage), so that it doesn't count as a weapon attack
edit: in addition, change battlefield management back to the old version
those changes will probably retain the design philosophy that it had in embers 1.0.0, and do so without making sawbutchers OP

[nsrr]

I saw someone suggest a change to the current version that I think would fix saw wheels. Just add charges that build up as you move and deactivation damage is based on charges. If you don't move, no damage. Reaches full damage after moving 5 tiles?

[Ravenholme]

I saw someone suggest a change to the current version that I think would fix saw wheels. Just add charges that build up as you move and deactivation damage is based on charges. If you don't move, no damage. Reaches full damage after moving 5 tiles?

That is actually a really good idea.

[Zeyphor]

I saw someone suggest a change to the current version that I think would fix saw wheels. Just add charges that build up as you move and deactivation damage is based on charges. If you don't move, no damage. Reaches full damage after moving 5 tiles?

that is actually not a really good idea
edit: my bad it is, but saw wheels will still have serious problems if that is implemented, so more needs to be done

it still means NPCs can still get the initial hit on you got 214%+ weapon damage before battlefield management(even worse on nm+) as a free attack AND THEN use spine breaker or punishment or something to kill you during the turn it first gets adjacent to you which is quite difficult to avoid due to their movespeed with saw wheels up

[nsrr]

Well, if the NPC had to build up charges it would only get one such hit in on you. That might be a powerful first hit, but it would certainly not be the only talent that doesn't balance well against the player.

The biggest problem with saw wheels in my mind is that it is more useful for melee fighting than it is for closing distance. If you are surrounded by mobs you can just pop it on whenever it comes off cool down to get a free, massive damage AoE that is effectively instant. This does not seem to fit the description or intention of the talent. Having to build up charges would prevent this behavior.

How about this: since you are motoring around with your Saws shoved into the ground, while Saw Wheels is sustained you cannot use any other actions (aside from sustains) which require Saws. You would have to use a non-attack talent or manually deactivate the sustain to trigger the AoE. This would 1) makes sense and 2) address the issue of the NPC getting to hit you with Saw Wheels and Punishment (for example) in one turn.

[0player]

Disarming you for the duration of Saw Wheels makes sense, yeah.

[bpat]

Anything to nerf Saw Butcher rares. I died to three instagibs in one run by level 19 on an Anorithil so I've resorted to disabling EoR when playing the Maj'Eyal campaign. Admittedly this was on Insane, but the changes to Insane in 1.2 were to prevent this kind of instakill from happening.

Similarly, Gunslinger rares are about bad as Skirmisher rares were. A nerf to Gunslinger rares would be nice too.

Overall the idea is good. Another possible solution is make it so you can only hit each enemy once per game turn.

[Nagyhal]

I miss the old Saw Wheels where you could feasibly build an entire character around passive Saw Wheels damage.

Addon idea: Balance Saw Wheels by making it an entire category. It can be as good as it is now / used to be, but only if you invest in every talent in that category.

Disarming you for the duration of Saw Wheels makes sense, yeah.

This is a good idea.

I saw someone suggest a change to the current version that I think would fix saw wheels. Just add charges that build up as you move and deactivation damage is based on charges. If you don't move, no damage. Reaches full damage after moving 5 tiles?

This is a good talent idea that should be implemented even if it isn't used for Saw Wheels!

[nsrr]

I miss the old Saw Wheels where you could feasibly build an entire character around passive Saw Wheels damage.

Addon idea: Balance Saw Wheels by making it an entire category. It can be as good as it is now / used to be, but only if you invest in every talent in that category.

Disarming you for the duration of Saw Wheels makes sense, yeah.

This is a good idea.

I saw someone suggest a change to the current version that I think would fix saw wheels. Just add charges that build up as you move and deactivation damage is based on charges. If you don't move, no damage. Reaches full damage after moving 5 tiles?

This is a good talent idea that should be implemented even if it isn't used for Saw Wheels!

I agree, that would be a fun add on and making it into it's own tree is a good idea. Then you can balance your ability to deal direct damage against your ability to zip around everything and watch them gib.

The idea to add charges that build as you move actually was implemented for Saw Wheels in the last update to EoR.