"Awakening" or subclass quests [spoilers]

[Suslik]

I think that far east part of the game is realatively straightforward and not as exciting as the west part. The main reasons are that your character progresses way slower in east and there's not so many super-duper-dangerous dungeons as dark crypt and unique events like caldera/bearscape/whatever. On higher difficulties you also hit level cap pretty early which's really underwhelming because you character almost stops progression at that point.

One of the most exciting parts of the game for me is transitioning from a necromancer to a lich. Not because you become way stronger but mainly thematically because you alter in a significant way and get more build options. Some other games(ragnarok, latale) have similar "awakening" subclass quests that you dump a lot of time into and when you're finally done and reemerge as a little more advanced class that feels absolutely amazing.

What if we add similar quests to other classes as well? For example some barbaric trial to a zerker that lets them specialize in either shield offense or 2-h giving them extra tree or just altering some talents in existing tree? Probably give them slightly altered appearence, maybe an extra size category just for sauce? Replace some of their weaker abilities with more powerful versions? Or a thematic character advancent for the cursed giving them an extra tree(maybe some reused one) letting them specialize in either will or str with minor passive bonuses and appearence change like some passive visual effect?

When it comes to implementation all characters can start with the same subclass quest and later we can add unique quests for every class. Passive bonuses may be the same for every archetype(like all wilder get the same bonuses, all warriors get other bonuses, etc) and they can be adjusted in later stages of development when a class gets their own unique subclass quest.

By adding complex subclass quests we can make the redundant classes more unique and varied and add so much needed spice for the far east. Main point is altering your class in lategame(maybe even at level 50 only) via complex enough subquest.

And to enhance the feeling of advanement, only the unique boss-level creatures could be granted advanced classes. Like the master gets reborn as a lich during the fight, other awakened classes may be as rare as him(orc pride leaders?).

What do you guys think?

[HousePet]

While it seems like a nice idea, I'm concerned that it overlaps mechanically with Prodigies, as a late game customisation/power boost.
Perhaps the two can be merged.
The special requirements for Prodigies tend to be grindy or achieved just by completing something that you would do anyway. This is feel is a major let down in the implementation of Prodigies.

This would change the system for learning a Prodigy:
First you get your first point.
Then you select which prodigy you want to get.
This gives you a quest to complete, possibly with a new location.
Once you complete the quest, you get the bonuses.

As a side effect, this would mean that prodigy bonuses don't kick in until late game. Which would help with the progression stall that tends to happen when you get to the East.

[Suslik]

No. I don't think awakening is anywhere close to prodigy phylosophy. Prodigy is a really powerful lategame ability that strengthens you and subclass is something that _alters_ you. Usually you lose some aspect of your character to strengthen others(like necromancer sacrifices humanity for lichdom), alter some of your existing talents and passives. Some visual indication of your awakening is pretty classic as well. And subclass is strictly related to your base class, so warrior can only choose warrior subclass, mage only mage subclass.

[HousePet]

The overlap I was referring to was the late game power boost, which both systems would be doing.
Prodigies like Aether Permeation and Corrupted Shell do alter you.

[Suslik]

Apparently I'm failing to express the idea properly. Maybe it's easier to refer to some other game that has awakenings/subclasses. Check out Dungeon Fighter Online, Darkblood Online, Latale. Subclassing is way more significant alteration of your character, it's more like rebirth with more specialized and stronger abilities. I don't think we need to make lategame player character any stronger, but more specialized - why not? For example in latale warrior can use all types of: swords&shields, 2-h swords, dual swords, etc. He may then advance into warlord sacrificing his ability to weild anything except 2h-swords but has wider range of 2h-abilities. Or into strider and specialize into dual swords. Warlord can awaken later into special another sub-sub-class further specializing in tanking-2h-weilder or cc-2h-weilder, strider has 2 further specializations as well, etc. There's really a lot of asian games that have this awakening/subclassing system and it proved to be very satisfying and rewarding.

Point of subclassing is advancing and specializing your character through a thematic and thorough questline, not just buffing them with a prodigy.

[HousePet]

I understand what you are referring to.
I like the concept.
I'm just saying that Prodigies already do late game character enhancement.
Having both systems could be messy and could have overlapping benefits.
Not all prodigies are just an OP ability. (the more interesting ones aren't press to win buttons)
Going on a flavourful quest >> take 5000 fire damage.
I am suggesting that taking the existing prodigy system and making it more flavourful would be a good way to go.

[HousePet]

So any further details about this?

[Suslik]

I definitely think that prodigies is a good thing about the game and should be left untouched.

As another example of class advancements one may consider is super-casualized and dumb overall but still a game that has class advancements is Dragon Age: Inquisition. You may start as a mage, make a mage build and then by completing subclass quest you may either become a rift mage or enchanted knight and even though they have all basic mage's talents, they play completely differently. Still the main idea of subclassing is still there: when your level is high enough you may develop your class and transform into a more specialized version of it.

Do notice that subclass quest is super-dumb in DA:I and class system itself is pretty redundant. LaTale, Darkblood Online, Dungeon Fighter Online, Ragnarok series, etc are way better examples. For example in LataLe your 3rd job class(basically your second class advancement) takes about 200 quests to complete: that's super-tedious and grindy but you feel tremendous achievment when you finally do complete them all and your class is reborn with slightly more powerful skills(both visually and mechanically), slight passive bonuses, visual stuff and a few completely new skills. You also get a refund of all skill points so that you may re-build your character which's actually an important aspect since it gives you that "rebirth" feeling.

Another example of decent "awakening" is in my opinion quake 4 even if that sounds surprising. If you havent played it, it's a major spoiler, so be warned:


[MAJOR SPOILER]
Somewhere in midgame you encounter a foe that's actually a final boss and.. lose the fight. The boss takes you while you're uncontious and attaches you to some kind of conveyor with other prisoners and you see one prisoner that's always one step ahead of you. As you're moved on the conveyour you can always see as freakish machines saw off arms of that prisoner ahead of you and replace them with cybernetic ones, then you move to their place and see your own arms sawed of and then brutally replaced with rough robotic ones. Then your legs are replaced, your intestines, etc. At the final stage prisoner ahead of you gets his brain burned down and replaced with some kind of computer to become a mindless cybernetic cannon fodder but suddenly the conveyor stops just before the same happens to you and you escape. With your new body and your own consciousness. Here's the whole procedure, you may skip the first minute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKhgbVoZnk
Even though it's an action game you have no actual stats and the only "buff" your new cyborg body offers is slightly increased movement speed and +25 max health, there's so much roleplay and aesthetics in it! Like when you meet your comrades and they are freaked out and almost start shooting you as some random mindless strogg.
[/MAJOR SPOILER]


I want to emphasize the aesthetic and thematic sides of awakening, not actual power creep: when a necromancer gets reborn, he does not get any super-strong bonuses(well, except for stun resistance), it's just aesthetic and roleplay that makes it feel so awesome for me. I think it'd be cool if other classes had such "awakening" as well.

[Radon26]

As another example of class advancements one may consider is super-casualized and dumb overall but still a game that has class advancements is Dragon Age: Inquisition. You may start as a mage, make a mage build and then by completing subclass quest you may either become a rift mage or enchanted knight and even though they have all basic mage's talents, they play completely differently. Still the main idea of subclassing is still there: when your level is high enough you may develop your class and transform into a more specialized version of it.

while i would like to have some sort of advancement, i can't ignore a small problem in here.
when we make our characters in game, they are already a subclass.
pointing to your mage example:
for a "enchanted knight", there is already the "arcane blade" who has the basic spells of an archmage, but instead of advanced elements, he has a special skill that lets him cast while fighting.
for a "rift mage" you might want to take a look at the "Arcanist" from the arcanum class pack.

on another hand, loking at what we already have:
Sun Pal, has to chose between a "guardian" and "crusader" (unless you are an ogre)
MindSlayer has to chose which element to transcend (unless you chose "all"?)

it may take some major changes to add the class advancement you are suggesting.

[HousePet]

Even a small net bonus can be manipulated into a strong bonus if you are giving up something you don't use/need.

Another potential problem is coming up with enough options without duplicating the prodigies.

But mostly, I just feel sad about the exploitable/grindy requirements of the prodigy system and the lack of flavour to most of them.

Overall, I would prefer these quests to the prodigy system as it is now.

I think Radon26 has a fair point too. Mechanically, even without the prodigy system, we already have a large scope for customising your character:
Choices inside your unlocked categories.
Unlocking of your locked categories.
Purchase/quest granting of categories. (though I supposed subclass quests would fit in this category)

While additional quests and flavour added by subclass quests would add to the gameplay, there isn't much scope for further differentiation of abilities. (eg. a two handed sun paladin is still just a two handed sun paladin with an extra quest)

[Suslik]

@Radon
I don't think we need to make as major changes as making our current classes into subclasses. My suggestion is to give just a slight advancement for every class, not to make current builds into different subclasses. There may be only one advancement path for every class(maybe the same advancement path for every class archetype i.e mages, warriors, etc) otherwise it'll break a lot of things that just work already.

@HP
I think we can drop gameplay effect almost entirely. Make the bonuses really non-significant but give players sense of advancement by visual addition or quality of life improvements. I don't know, add player's statue to the Last Hope or permanent motion blur. And slightly alter some of the second-rate abilities: summoners may heal a small amount when they summon stuff, corruptors may get chance to add diseases to some of their spells, reavers may heal slightly more when hitting diseased foes, zerkers increase duration of immortality by 1 turn, maybe increase proficiency for some tree from 1.3 to 1.5. It's just the feeling of achievment and progressing that's important, as well as any kind of improvement to your class thematic aspects, not actual OMG NOW I'M OP.

[HousePet]

Maybe not quality of life improvements, this game kinda focusses on not making the player go through crap. Quality of Life is standard in this model.

[Strongpoint]

My problem with Far East is not uninteresting quests, problem of Far East is that difference between 11 and 12 level character is large, difference between level 45 and level 46 character is barely noticeable.

Getting cosmetic bonuses for level 45 character after doing some quest(s) Is meh.

[Suslik]

I agree that progression past level ~30 is getting way slower. However, I don't see a solution to this without power creep. Until level 24 you're getting new abilities and that has a huge impact on your character. Past this threshold you're just improving what you already have and gain prodigies. But if we add any means of gaining new abilities in lategame, that'll change game balance significantly and players are already strong enough at that point.

[Micbran]

An extra dungeon perhaps with a class specific artifact and/or a bonus cosmetic effect might be less likely to cause power creep. It would give exp, a little bit of extra loot and then an artifact geared towards the class. Or maybe some sort of tiny buff to a % damage type or another stat. Something tiny that will make you want to do it, but not so tiny that you'll skip it and with enough difficulty that there's still a potential to die.
Options for a reward:
Mastery towards either a given category or a chosen category
A very specific buff towards one of the classes main trees or theme, like Suslik said (reavers dealing more damage to diseased people, etc.)
An artifact centered around the class.
A choice of a small set of buffs that the player would choose, I.E. For bulwark: 3% resist all, 10% physical damage or +armor hardiness and +armor.