Saving CON! And undead while we're at it!

[edge2054]

Con sucks. Undead suck because they can't use heroism infusions. I like Con, I like undead. I'd like to salvage them both.

So here's the idea...

Con gets heal mod. 0.4% per point over 10. It also reduces fatigue. 0.4% per point over 10.

How does this help undead in particular? Does it let them use heroism infusions by becoming more alive?

Well.. no it doesn't. So let's give undead die_at equal to the amount of life they get from Con while we're at it.

[Effigy]

Sounds good to me.

[Zonk]

I like the CON change, makes sense.

But when you talk undead, do you mean Skeletons+Ghoul character races or are you also including NPC? Because in the latter case, giving all of them die_at would be a significant balance change, I think.


(Also, isn't Skeleton already considered a very strong player race?)

[supermini]

Sounds good to me.

[0player]

For 1.3, NPCs never gain several secondary stats from primary stats, and die_at would be one of them.

[edge2054]

I like the CON change, makes sense.

But when you talk undead, do you mean Skeletons+Ghoul character races or are you also including NPC? Because in the latter case, giving all of them die_at would be a significant balance change, I think.


(Also, isn't Skeleton already considered a very strong player race?)

At 110 Con it would be -400 die_at. The only undead that even get close to that on normal are high peak ghouls.

The Master, on normal, would gain 16 die_at.

Skeletons are strong and fun on normal sure.

And as 0player said even if we made this change today for 1.3, NPCs aren't gaining bonuses from stats the way they should due to an old bug that won't be fixed right now anyway.

[Delmuir]

I'm on board with this…

However, I'd like to change Heroism infusions such that they just add the life to your max life rather than creating negative life. The effect would be the same except it would draw a stark thematic difference with the undead.

That's another question but honestly, it just strikes me as a bit more thematic.

[Radon26]

The effect would be the same...

impending doom: deal xx% of target's max life or xxx damage (whichever is lower) over 10 turns.
ghoul and sun cloack: character cannot take more than X0% of its life in a single attack.
Chant of fortitude: increase your life by x%
second life: if you die with the sustain on, you revive with 1HP and are then healed for xx% of your max HP
vitality: if your hp falls below 50%, regain x% of your HP and xx (based on con) every turn for 8 turns.
daunting presence: if taken more than 5% hit, daze all around. deactivates if your life fall below xx%.
berserker rage: lose 2% of your life each turn(if enemies are in sight)
bloodbath: on crit, increase your maximum life by x%
unstoppable: cannot die. when ends, regain x% of your life for each foes slain while active.
Blood vengeance: reduce cooldowns when hit for more than xx% of your hp.
Stone touch. if the creature loses more than 30% of its life in a single hit, it dies

i am sure i could find a few more.

i am not against the idea, i am just saying that there would be SOME impact. i am not advanced enough to judge if its game breaking, but there still is SOME difference.

[supermini]

I'm on board with this…

However, I'd like to change Heroism infusions such that they just add the life to your max life rather than creating negative life. The effect would be the same except it would draw a stark thematic difference with the undead.

That's another question but honestly, it just strikes me as a bit more thematic.

Probably best to start a new topic for this to avoid derailing the discussion.

[grayswandir]

For 1.3, NPCs never gain several secondary stats from primary stats, and die_at would be one of them.

Specifically, NPCs currently don't get any extra life from con at all. This has already been fixed, but not put in 1.3 since it's gonna require massive rebalancing.
So since we're already going to be messing with everything's life totals at some point in the future, I think it's fine.

[Delmuir]

Well… I guess I should have written "effectively the same." There is just something about online forums that bring out the "technically correct" crowd.

It's all missing the point… there's a pretty big impact by suddenly giving undead 400 more NEGATIVE life, such as the Ghoul's first racial talent. In theory, a Ghoul could run around with a 100 life (with this skill and gear maybe giving it another 500 or more, if it's a necro or bulwark) and tanking huge burst damage.

This would also affect the Necromancers Sacrifice shield and a few other talents.

There are lots of consequences to this mechanic.

I thought about it and didn't put my comment in a different thread because it's not an unrelated idea. There is significant overlap with this idea and how it's applied.

[donkatsu]

I like this a lot.

[edge2054]

It's all missing the point… there's a pretty big impact by suddenly giving undead 400 more NEGATIVE life, such as the Ghoul's first racial talent. In theory, a Ghoul could run around with a 100 life (with this skill and gear maybe giving it another 500 or more, if it's a necro or bulwark) and tanking huge burst damage.

This would also affect the Necromancers Sacrifice shield and a few other talents.

There are lots of consequences to this mechanic.

I thought about it and didn't put my comment in a different thread because it's not an unrelated idea. There is significant overlap with this idea and how it's applied.

It would be bonus life. So Ghouls would still have lots of regular life, they'd just get some die_at too. And yeah, it would have some deep interactions with Sacrifice Shield as well as the Ghoul talent itself.

This is all part of the point though. Currently it's better for necromancers not to go Lich because of how Sacrifice Shield interacts with being a Lich. For one you get more life (not good for Sacrifice) and for two you can no longer use Heroism Infusions (really really not good).

Ghouls I think could use a buff anyway. Skeletons I'm on the fence about but I don't think they're a top tier race by any means and giving them some free die at is going to be game breaking.

Effectively this lets Undead double dip Con. But considering what they give up late game (Heroism Infusions) I think it's okay.

For NPCs it's really not going to be that big of a deal. Maybe necro summons. I would have to look at them. (Summoners are the major hold up with Grayswandir's patch, I checked the NPC files and most NPCs have relatively sane Con values so the life they'd gain from it being fixed isn't a lot. As was mentioned up thread Ghouls are about the worst offenders and on normal they're not breaking 100 Con at level 50.)

[HousePet]

I disagree about undead needing a buff.

I like the idea of a small heal mod bonus from con though.

[Effigy]

Losing infusions is a big penalty to undead. This at least gives them something in compensation. People keep mentioning Heroism, but even giving up Movement is enough to put me off undead.