Class idea: Blackened Hand (Arcane Brawler)

[Planetus]

So, an idea I've been toying around with for a while. The Blackened Hand is the class for mages who dare to wield magic with their bare hands. Their hands are burnt black by magic, but the power infuses their bodies. I'm imagining a more arcane-melee type class than the caster-melee fusion of Arcane Blades. I figure this class will have many spells that have range 1, are self-centered novas, or are small cones, many spell sustains that give melee combat and defensive benefits, and the like.

What I'd like to see the central talent tree is this:

Spell/Grasping Magic (Mag):
Channel Hand (sustain): Channel a selected element through your unarmed melee attacks, somehow adding elemental damage to all melee hits. Maybe add a % of weapon damage in the chosen element, or maybe raw spellpower based damage, or maybe make it convert a % of regular weapon damage to the element (not adding any there) and give a +% damage to that element (so the % converted is amplified). I kind of like that last idea the most, but it brings up some complexity.

Arcane Body (passive/sustain): Increase Str based on Mag, Dex based on Cun, and Con based on Wil. I'm thinking this class may get more benefit from Cun than Wil (low mana cost coupled with no other benefits from it), so the Dex/Cun bonus would probably be stronger than the Con/Wil bonus.

Channeled Protection (passive): This talent would give defensive benefits depending on the channeled element. I'd like to see more than the basic fire/lightning/ice elements here (especially arcane, but maybe also temporal, light, darkness, etc.) and I have an idea for a creative damage shield called the proportional shield which absorbs damage based on the % of max HP it would deal (so a 1-hit kill is absorbed completely) which seems to fit better with the paradox/time theme than any other. Ok, so that's kind of meshing several ideas together, but all around one theme.

???: Not sure what would fit in the last one. Maybe some more passive/sustain melee benefits based on element? Maybe some offensive benefits like physical power, spell power, various speeds, etc?

Other than that, I'm figuring they'd have one tree for each element they get (as I said above, I'd like to avoid the basic fire/ice/lightning if possible, and I'd really like to add arcane). These trees would be mostly full of activated spells, with lots of melee damage options, several rush/jump/teleport themes, maybe a couple damage shields, etc. One idea I was playing with was limiting castable spells to those based on the currently channeled element. That may be a little restrictive, though, and if the third option for the Channel Hands spell is taken, then it seems somewhat redundant as the +% damage option would already heavily predispose offensive skills to that element.

Does this strike anyone's fancy? Anyone have fun suggestions?

[The Revanchist]

Sounds cool, and I'd try it.

As for suggestions, I'd encourage locking off-element trees when you aren't channeling them. As long as channel switching is instant.

[astreoth]

since 1.2.0 unarmed combat has been a generic tree with a passive that gives you str and con based on dex and cun so a magical brawler wouldn't really need a specialized stat compensation option like your suggesting.

also why exactly would a trained mage go this route I mean I could see this as an untrained mage class like arcane blade and shadow blade but why would a formally trained magic user go a route that would mutilate themselves and not just use a healing spell to fix it.

also you would have to go the get all the elements route if you went with formally trained so no avoiding fire/ice/lightning their.

and if you do go the untrained route you'll have to limit the elements available to the class like the other untrained mage's do with arcane blades getting fire,lightning, and earth, and shadow blades getting darkness, light, and time. as well as give the class a mana generator ability.

so your theme needs some work I'd suggest playing the brawler class in order to get a feel for how unarmed works as well as archmage and arcane blade for the difference between trained and untrained magic and an adventurer run with the right trees could give you a good look into how something like this might play. not gonna listen to any its not unlocked talk either theirs an addon for that.

[Planetus]

I'm thinking trained mages thrust into desperate situations (i.e. they're out in the wild, lost their staff, and are being assaulted by monsters, in desperation they grasp at raw magic with their bare hands). They may not heal themselves because it was magic that damaged the hands in the first place, so they can't be healed by magic. Or, maybe, because the magic infuses their bodies so much that they want to continue. Maybe using staves allows a mage to channel their spells to much longer ranges, so mages without them are limited to how far their spells can go (thus the melee focus).

The big problem with this is that, currently, mages can use magic without staves with no problems, it's just not ideal, so my lore doesn't fit game mechanics. And yes, I know my lore still needs some refining. I'm thinking something that is themed and stat-build like a mage, but is played more like a brawler with magical attacks.

As for current brawlers, I've been playing them for a bit, and they're seriously OP now. What I'm not sure about with the current stat boost for them, though, is how much this class would pump Cun and Dex. Also, nothing gives any benefit to Wil or Mag. Mag at the least would be THE primary theme of this class, while Dex would be a definite secondary, maybe even tertiary behind Cun. Again, I don't know that Wil would actually be a major stat, if I keep mana costs low enough, but it would probably be on par with Dex. I'm not imagining this class would get many of the Brawler trees anyway, so the generic tree could be sacrificed. Especially if similar bonuses get tied to Channel Hands. I agree that both stat boosting talents would be too much, though.

As for elements, I'm not so opposed to fire/ice/lightning, as I am hoping they won't be the only options. If fire/ice/lightning/arcane/temporal/light/darkness were the options, that's 4 other elements you can play with.

Something else I've been thinking about is that I'd like the class to work well with switching freely and fluidly between elements, so maybe the spell trees would be themed on effect (offensive, defensive, utility, etc) rather than element, and then each spell would have specific influences from each element (fire attacks can cause burn/flameshock, while temporal attacks can cause slow/timeprison and arcane attacks can cause dispel/silence?). That would mean players invest in mechanic spells, and they can then flavor them with any elements they wanted. As long as switching over Channel Hands is instant, this could work mid-battle (slow the enemy with time attacks, then switch to lightning which gives you a speed boosting sustain, etc). Of course, that also means that investing in one talent is, in a sense, giving you 5-7 talents (on shared cooldown, though), since you can instantly switch between elements and get a similar, but different attack spell.

Also, if the trees are elementally themed and you can only cast from the trees of the element you're channeling, then any kind of sustains would be tricky to work. They'd have to all be instant cast, so that switching between elements wouldn't mean taking 5 turns to set up all your sustains again.

Lastly, if the trees are elementally themed, with another central tree for channeling, then that means most players will invest heavily in channeling, and probably no more than two other elements, at least until late.

And astreoth, I've played every class in the game, including adventurer. I've been at this for a while, so I've got at least a decent feel for all the classes (except I haven't done much with skirmishers). I don't really like Arcane Blades much, both because of the stat-juggling and because they tend to just be bump-heavy and hope the spell procs. I much preferred a mod-class called Spellsword from a little while back. They played much more as active caster-warriors, with melee spells along elemental themes.

There was also an artifact sword, though I haven't seen it in a while, that had a description of an archmage who got tired of staves and wanted to play around with a sword a bit. The Spellsword and that sword kind of inspired me, but since armed melee mages have been done (at least twice now, three times if you count Shadowblades, more if you count Sun Paladins and such), while brawlers are currently the only unarmed-themed class in the game.

[astreoth]

yeah I agree we really need more unarmed classes but that don't excuse bad design or iffy lore and theirs really iffy lore here.

and about stat distribution with the generic unarmed training tree you could run this class as a mag, dex, and cun class mages only need will for mana so tune costs right and the class will be fine with those listed stats and their str and con compensation.

as for play style you could do what the monk addon does and have elements come with abilitys that swap the sustained elements maybe with temporary buffs attached to encourage cycling through elements and making elemental combos.

heck maybe a generic spell tree that gives different spells based on sustained element

as for lore what you want from the class seems like it'd be a much better fit for an untrained mage or someone who's been afflicted by some kind of corrupting magical force like those crystals in the scintillating cave they spread to rats to make magical crystal rats could have this class be based on crystal corruption.

or if your really dead set on this idea could swap out archmage for alchemist they actually are somewhat dependent on staffs for casting and do have ability's that elementally infuse themselves so brawler alchemist could work pretty well for this class idea.

and yeah spellblades awesome, addons starting to get ripe though.

[Planetus]

I'm not 100% tied to the trained mage, but an untrained mage seems even more tied to only fire/ice/lightning than trained mages. The alchemist idea, though, is quite interesting. Maybe an amateur alchemist who get's caught without his staff and with only 1-2 gems left, so he clutches them in his hands and imbues them (and thus his hands) with magic? Maybe this inspires him to investigate magic more intellectually, and thus he gets ideas for temporal, arcane, and maybe other element magics?

The crystaline idea is also interesting, but it seems like it would tie the class to vim and blight instead of mana and varying elements.

I'm still not 100% satisfied with the Unarmed Training tree. I'm running a melee mage adventurer already with it and finding the stat bonuses to be, well, not too bad, but not too useful. They're bumping 2 of the 3 least useful stats for me (Priority goes: Mag/Cun, Dex,..., Str,...., Con, Wil). Stat distribution was very hard early on (though that's mostly due to the fact that there are no really melee-oriented spell trees at the moment), but now that I'm topping level 12, and have had 3 escorts I could take +2 Mag or Cun from so far, I'm in a much more comfortable position. Now I'm just hurting for Class points, which I usually do as an adventurer.

I've taken Shadow Magic, Enhancements, and Heroic Magic (from the Green Knight mod) for on-hit damage and I'm 1-shotting almost everything with my elemental damage, though. I just wish I had some nova spells, cones, rush spells (backhand is working for me there), and the like.

Also, astreoth, you're sounding very critical of the whole idea with little detail. I know you're iffy on the lore being trained-centered and that stat-boosting skill, but is there anything else in the idea you think needs work?

[astreoth]

yeah I tend to be pretty critical when it comes to design.

its not that I'm opposed to the idea and while the lore you proposed is bad, the scraps of mechanics you proposed seem solid for the lore.

so their isn't much to criticize the skill proposals don't really mean much until you've got the lore down pat so I'm mostly gonna focus on that.

only mentioned stats since unarmed + magic doesn't leave any kind of stat builds beside mag,dex,cun unless you want to make a class specific weapon mastery/stat compensator.

and for more detail on those two ideas I proposed.

with the alchemist one I'm thinking of having it be an alchemist that doesn't stick to approved forms of magic like the traditional alchemist but still uses alchemy based magic allowing for darker aspects of alchemy to be used like the philosopher stone, homunculi, alchemic pursuit of eternal life, some more experimental branches of golemancy like golem armour, and human transmutation for powerful buffs like iron skin, acid breath disintegrating touch.

this would give a good thematic backbone and justify unarmed combat with powerful self buffs as well as give some pretty interesting combos with golem armour and the elemental alchemy trees you could get those buffs on your self.

and you could grab someone by the face slam them to the ground and then set off alchemist bombs attached to your hand to blow their face off.

and for the crystal idea we can see from the crystal enemies and crystal rat that while this would tie you to blight it would still open the way for a wide variety of arcane magic so it would at most be a vim/mana class and you could work swinging it entirely toward arcane with the reasoning that your not touching blight itself but the threads its corrupted.

can't really think of much to do with the theme beyond that though but it is pretty solid thematically what with the crystal corruption already spreading like this and giving elemental magic as seen in crystal rats.

thinking about it these both seem like good class ideas that should be in game.

edit:

also the reason I seemed against it being trained is because your proposal was pretty much archmage wanting to kill stuff by blowing up their own hands which was pretty stupid honestly but could work for an untrained mage who didn't know better.

I'm not against it being a trained mage class heck my alchemist proposal would be a trained mage class its just your initial proposal didn't make sense for a trained mage.

as for stats not using unarmed training will just be a lot more work and at this point their isn't really thematic reason to not take that shortcut.

[malboro_urchin]

Mechanics are mechanics. They can enhance lore, and lore can help flesh out mechanics. However, I fundamentally disagree with the notion that 'bad lore' = bad mechanics. You can have a mechanically well-balanced class with interesting tactical choices without a shred of lore to back it up. It'd still play like a mechanically sound character, though some might find it a touch boring without lore.

I'd say don't worry about the details of the lore just yet. Focus on the mechanics that you want the class to have, and let the lore flow from there. This looks like a very cool, exciting class to me. The base idea of channeling raw power through your hands until they blacken is badass.

[astreoth]

okay interesting mechanics alone can make a class but the kind of bottom up design your describing is very bad game design this is a role playing game the mechanics are tools to let you give characters interesting powers not something you should just paint lore on top of.

having a solid overall theme of what the class is, what you want from it, how it plays, and the gist of how to mechanically implement that is something you should have well hammered out before you even think of touching code if you don't you can end up with garbage or something awesome like a flaming werewolf that you just can't give thematic sense dooming your addon to never reaching main game inclusion or having to rewrite that werewolf from an equilibrium class into a vim class to make it work.

so yeah summary is.

yes you can paint lore onto solid mechanics and have it be perfectly fine this isn't good idea though and it won't always work.

and yeah you can plan the general mechanics of the class and just figure out how to spin it thematically later but you'll just have to do more planning to make it fit in from their.

yeah design wise the best way to go is to treat mechanics and code as tools use them to bring your idea to life.

[malboro_urchin]

Both top-down and bottom-up are very valid forms of design. Each has its own merits and downsides. I wouldn't say either one is wrong; it's a difference in style. Just like mechanics and code, lore is also a tool to help bring your ideas to life. When the creator decides to apply each tool in the design process is solely the decision of the creator, and I wouldn't decry anyone's design for doing things in a different order than I would have in their shoes.

On topic: Planetus, you describe fire, ice, lightning as basic elements, and I think you've said you want the class to work with some of the less straightforward damage types like blight, temporal, etc? I wouldn't say that those can only be accessed with training. Just imply that the magics that Blackened Hands are tapping into is particularly potent and dangerous (I mean, c'mon, it's so intense it chars your hands from use). If you want to further reinforce this idea, one way (and by no means the best way) is to make the more out-there damage types locked trees.

[astreoth]

alright I can accept your view its just bottom up design has led to a lot of failures in my indie gamedev attempts. and yeah the more out their elements would really only make sense for a trained class since their hard to tap without specialization if you really want them your gonna have to make some good lore to justify them if your aiming for main game integration.

also more ideas for lore

mage eater
yeah this idea would basically be some crazy guy taking advantage of how eating magical stuff like potions, sandworm hearts in corrupted and plain flavor, blood and other forces of arcane corruption to gain magical power would probably end up playing like some kind of mutant uber horror.

afflicted spellcaster
yeah idea here is that some would be arcane blade with untaped psionic potential (and yes the two can coexist according to doomed) goes through a traumatic event (magic hating lynch mob) that turns them into an afflicted while retaining their magic powers and not having gained any weapon skills they just rip foes apart with their bare hands through sheer chaotic power.

it could work for the scorched hands bit and would give you the thematic license to custom build stat compensation and weapon mastery.
do have trouble thinking of a way for this to not be a rip off of naruto's tailed beast mode though.
yeah chaotic mind powers on top of chaotic magic powers would add up to an extremely chaotic class.

so yeah that adds up to five somewhat thematically sound ideas for arcane brawlers so far

the untrained mage brawler

the evil alchemist

the crystal corrupted

the cannibalistic mutant psycho

and the magically mad guy.

so any of these sounding good enough to focus on or do you want more options and or more definition of each.

[Atarlost]

It could be as simple as a physically fit mage that doesn't believe in over reliance on magic. Fluff doesn't need to be complicated.

[astreoth]

wouldn't such a mage rather just grab a sword and some platemail?

in game unarmed developed mostly due to lack of access to more traditional weapons so its probably best we give this class a good reason to be unarmed and not just a melee combo class.

[HousePet]

something awesome like a flaming werewolf

Why must you taunt me!?

[astreoth]

astreoth wrote:
something awesome like a flaming werewolf

Why must you taunt me!?

because I can.

and I refuse to acknowledge anyone who would make str the stat nescessary for a magic based weapon tree as a good designer.