Wyrmic Tweaks(With addon!)

[SageAcrin]

though honestly its probably gonna be grays addon at this point since he's the only one putting his code where his design is.

Hey, I code things sometimes.

http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/wyrmicmk2

General changes;

-Each Wyrmic unique tree starts with a passive buff. Accuracy/Physpower on Wing Buffet(which is the only moved talent and is now the L1 on Fire), Mindpower on Acidic Spray, Movespeed on Lightning Speed, Mind/Physcrit on Devour, saves on Ice Claw, and Mind/Physical Speed on Prismatic Slash. The only high buffs here are the movement speed(similar to Celerity) and the Mindpower(20 is a lot for Wyrmic), but they're all usefully notable, especially the crits.

-Many Wyrmic talents are now AoE physical attacks!

-Most Wyrmic talents don't friendly fire now.

-Huge amount of small(And some not so small, check out Devouring Flame's lifedrain DoT that doesn't harm allies, and Ice Wall's radial freezing aura!) tweaks and changes. I'd like to get an indepth changelist up, but several talents ended up with a small paragraph of little changes when I was trying to muck with them, and this was a gradual process where I gave up on maintaining a changelist over time. The general impact is pretty similar to what I outlined in the Wyrmic discussion topic, but a lot of the details changed.

Check it out! It seems like a lot of fun to me.

Edit: Full changelist;

-Cold Drake

Ice Claw: Always applies Ice damage instead of Cold. Changed from 1 range to a (1, 3) scaling radius cone. Damage is raised from (1.525, 2.025 to 1.6, 2.3). Now grants +4 to all three saves on talent level.
Icy Skin: Armor and Cold damage retribution changed from (Wil, 10, 700)/10 and (Wil, 6, 600)/10 to talentMindDamage(5, 25) and talentMindDamage(10, 30) respectively-values are overall lower. Added a (combatTalentLimit 1, 0.02, 0.10)% boost to max life while active. Sustain cost lowered to 10 from 30.
Ice Wall: Cooldown changed from flat 30 to (combatTalentLimit 5, 30, 10). Walls deal (3, 15) TalentMindDamage in Ice to enemies within (TalentScale 1, 2), meaning at cap it is a fairly solid DoT as well as a wall. (Does not self or ally damage)
Ice Breath: Damage boosted from (30, 430) to (30, 500). Uses new damage type ICE_SLOW, which slows enemies by 20% in addition to the normal Ice effects.

-Fire Drake

Swapped positions of Wing Buffet and Bellowing Roar.

Wing Buffet: Cooldown reduced to 8(from 10), Equi cost reduced to 5(from 7). Deals (1.1, 1.6) WeaponTalentDamage(instead of 0.8*Physical Power damage). Range lowered from (5, 9) to (3, 6). Passively raises physical power and accuracy by 4.
Bellowing Roar: Equilibrium cost raised from 3 to 8. Confusion strength lowered from 40+(6*TL) to 20+(6*TL); Ends up the same at TL5 though, due to the cap. Damage slightly lowered(from 40, 400 to 30, 380).
Devouring Flame: No longer harms the caster. Cooldown reduced to 20(was 35), Equi reduced to 6(was 10). Deals (15, 60) Mindpower(was formerly TalentStatDamage Wil(15, 120)), overall marginally better I believe. Radius changed from (2) to (2, 5 combatTalentScale, 5 at cap 2 at min). Now uses the new FIRE_DRAIN damage type(same as Fire but heals the user 10% of the damage it deals). Duration raised from (3, 7) to (5, 9).
Fire Breath: Now deals (30, 650), was (30, 550). Now uses the new FIRE_STUN damage type, which has a 25% chance of attempting to apply a 5 damage per turn/three turn Fireshock, and otherwise functions as FIREBURN damage type.

-Higher Draconic

Prismatic Slash: Now adds a ((2, 10, 0.5 TalentScale) /100, 12%~ at 6.5 or so) passive attack/mind speed bonus, old save bonus removed. Weapon hit damage raised from (1.2, 2.0) to (1.6, 2.3), burst damage remains the same. Now uses new FIRE_STUN and ICE_SLOW for the fire/ice bursts. Equi cost lowered to 10(from 20), Cooldown lowered to 12(from 16).
Venomous Breath: Changed from Insidious Poison to Crippling Poison. Effect of the poison is (50, 10, 20 TalentScale) chance to make enemies fail complex actions. Damage raised from (60, 650) to (60. 750). Now passively raises nature damage by 4% and nature resistance by 3%.
Wyrmic Guile: Now lowers the cooldown of (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Corrosive, Venomous, and Sand Breath) by math.min(8, 1, 6 TalentScale), in addition to previous effects. (In practice, this halves the breath CDs when capped.)
Chromatic Fury: Unchanged.

Sand Drake:

Swallow: Cooldown changed from (10) to (TalentLimit 4, 10, 7), so 10->7 with leveling. Damage raised from (1, 1.5) to (1.6, 2.5)-heavy raise is due to its off element Nature damage. Now passively raises Physical and Mental Critical rates by (2, 10 TalentScale).
Quake: Damage changed from (0.8*Physical Power) to (1.3, 2.1) TalentWeaponDamage. Cooldown lowered from 30 to 20. Knockback changed to 3.
Burrow: Duration drastically lowered(from 8, 20 to 3, 7). Now grants MindTalentDamage(15, 30) APR and (15, 30)/2 physical resistance penetration while active. Equilibrium cost lowered to 15 from 50, Cooldown changed to (10, 40, 15) from 30. Can be used instantly at TL5.
Sand Breath: Duration of blindness lowered from (3, 7) to (3, 4). Damage raised from (30, 400) to (30, 480).

Storm Drake:

Lightning Speed: Cooldown changed from 26 to 25(Odd number was the only reason for the tweak). Duration changed from (1.1, 2.6) to (1.1, 3.1). Now grants a passive (0.7, 0.08, 0.40) Movement speed bonus(45%~ at 6.5).
Static Field: Radius changed from (1) to (TalentScale 1, 6). Now deals (20, 160) Mindpower lightning damage in addition to the current life drain. Damage penalty on Elite Bosses changed from (current life drain/3) to (current life drain/2.5), a small boost against the final bosses but still lower than every other enemy in the game.
Tornado: No longer can self-damage. Projectile speed raised from 2 to 4. Now hits radius (2, 4) instead of Radius 1, and the target is now stunned for (3, 6 TalentScale) turns instead of 4 flatrate.
Lightning Breath: Damage raised from (30, 500) to (30, 670). Daze rate changed from flat 25% to (Mindpower 10, 30)+20%, generally 25 to 50% based on levels and Mindpower.

Venom Drake:

Acidic Spray: Now grants 4 Mindpower per level, passively.
Corrosive Mist: Equilibrium cost lowered to 10, Cooldown to 15. Damage raised slightly from 10, 70 to 15, 70.
Dissolve: Unchanged.
Corrosive Breath: Damage raised from (30, 420) to (30, 520). Disarm chance changed from flat 25% to (Mindpower 10, 30)+20%, 25-50% range in general.

[astreoth]

yeah the talents look better but I'm not so sure about synergy now that devouring flames don't hit you wyrmic has lost out on the potent combo of flames and harmony and that sweet 40ish global speed you can get so that's a synergy drop their.

and I'll admit the first tier talents all have some good buffs now along with general improvements but their is one thing that's bugging me the weapon damage on non-weapon talents combined with accuracy just seeming extremely ineffective for some reason gives a large miss chance to talents that shouldn't even consider missing like wing buffet.

the accuracy thing isn't just you though its cause the class has relatively weak mastery for the accuracy talent seems to give swallow an inordinately large miss chance even against enemies with single digit dodge noticed it on grays addon too.

so yeah overall this seems like a good improvement to the base class but I'm doubtful that patching bad design is the way to go here.

[Suslik]

Tested the addon a little. It definitely makes some talents more useful but it does not solve the core problem: you have just too many of them. You can rotate them in any order you like then just hit Nature's Balance and do that again. My main complaint about wyrmics: they have too many abilities that are not situational enough to be useful. They are all just offensive and antisynergetic with melee talents because mainly scale with mindpower, while breath scale with strength. So you either pump you strength and go for weapons + breaths and all your willpower talents get poor scaling or you go mindstars + those minor talents and your breaths suck. Your additions do nothing about this antisynergy.

[SageAcrin]

Correct, the add-on does not change the core style of play of the class.

It just makes it more effective.

If a class is effective and distinctive and people enjoy playing it-opinions I heard repeatedly during that Wyrmic discussion I quoted earlier-why not try a version where those traits are retained?

If all the classes followed the same style of construction, it'd be boring...

As to accuracy; With Wing Buffet+Weapon Accuracy, you have more baseline accuracy than many other classes, not less. Certainly, you have more accuracy than, say, a Sun Paladin.

[Suslik]

If all the classes followed the same style of construction, it'd be boring...

If the style is called "good design", it's actually not boring. People don't love wyrmics for having bad design. They love them for good aspects of their overall bad design that should apparently be saved in any kind of rework.

[SageAcrin]

Claiming Wyrmic is badly designed objectively, in basic concept, is quite interesting.

What makes you say that?

[Suslik]

Due to reasons stated above already: they have numerous talents that no one ever uses due to other talents being superior. Plus multiple antisynergies in scaling. See, being badly designed does not make a class not interesting to play, it just means that "fun" parts should be preserved and expanded while redundant parts are either made viable or removed.

[SageAcrin]

And the goal of my addon is to improve those talents that are underused, making various talents fill new, interesting roles, and to overhaul the scaling mechanisms(Practically nothing uses anything but Strength, Mindpower or WeaponTalentDamage now-fairly reasonable for a fighter/mind combo class.).

That doesn't sound like a design that is intrinsically flawed.

[Atarlost]

Due to reasons stated above already: they have numerous talents that no one ever uses due to other talents being superior. Plus multiple antisynergies in scaling. See, being badly designed does not make a class not interesting to play, it just means that "fun" parts should be preserved and expanded while redundant parts are either made viable or removed.

Antisynergies are not bad. They're what make it possible to have distinct builds that both work.

You don't complain that bow talents don't scale with cunning or sling talents don't scale with strength when both appear on the archer. The strength and will wyrmics can be as distinct as the strength and cunning archers.

[Suslik]

Due to reasons stated above already: they have numerous talents that no one ever uses due to other talents being superior. Plus multiple antisynergies in scaling. See, being badly designed does not make a class not interesting to play, it just means that "fun" parts should be preserved and expanded while redundant parts are either made viable or removed.

Antisynergies are not bad. They're what make it possible to have distinct builds that both work.

You don't complain that bow talents don't scale with cunning or sling talents don't scale with strength when both appear on the archer. The strength and will wyrmics can be as distinct as the strength and cunning archers.

Excellent example with bows and slings. The only difference is that you're not forced to levelup the whole sling tree to get a bow. But you're forced to pick 3 talents out of 4 in every wyrmic tree just to get the breath and if you are 100% str-based wyrmic you're never going to use them due to having no willpower. That's what bad design is.

[Doctornull]

if you are 100% str-based wyrmic you're never going to use them due to having no willpower. That's what bad design is.

I wasn't aware that anyone did 100% Str-based Wyrmics.

I guess that's like a Rogue who avoids Cunning?

Is that a thing which people actually do?

[SageAcrin]

This is why a truckload of weapon talent damage, area-hitting, non-breath skills appear earlier in the trees, and why an entire Mindpower/Mindstar oriented tree exists(Acid), along with a breath cooldown lowerer designed to allow you to spam breaths from just a few trees and still be effective, if you wish.

So you can do differing, separate builds. You won't really breathe on things, if you go for a really dedicated physical build that doesn't have any mindpower talents at all, but you can very much have a physical oriented build nearly entirely, now. (The only breath you'd really run in that cast is probably Venomous, or maybe Fire too if you don't mind spending the one point on Devouring Flames.)

One can easily run up Storm/Acid/Higher Draconic now for a very Mindpower oriented Wyrmic, eventually picking up the later Mindpower talents as they go.

Sure, you can't ignore Strength no matter what, but that's like saying Anorithil can't ignore Cunning and doesn't work for it. There's enough reasons for any build of Wyrmic to pick up Strength and at least use Mindstars to hit things with Dissolve, so that there's not a feeling of "This is a waste of my points", much like the critical rate boost from Cunning on Anorithils.

Is any of this optimal? Probably not... it's a mind/fighter combined class. It's probably best to run up both sides, and the new passives are designed to reward that combo.

But I'm pretty sure you can make a near or entirely pure Mindpower or Strength Wyrmic, after the changes I've made. And they'll play really differently.

[Suslik]

Yeah I see what you mean and i partially agree that making talents have some passive effects and added weapon damage are definitely good things. But what we still lack is some synergy between melee and casting. Currently you're levelling those up absolutely independently and one gets no benefit from another and I still think we have too many active talents(even with passive effects) and not enough passives/sustains/temporary buffs.

[donkatsu]

I'm going to give this a go, but the first thing I noticed is that the passive bonuses should have diminishing returns. Really not looking forward to the inevitable Wyrmic Skirmisher with 35 levels of Prismatic Slash.

[SageAcrin]

Scaling effects(Saves, powers) have flat rate, Percent effects (Devour, Prismatic Slash and Lightning Speed) have diminishing returns and are using some of Hachem's scalers.

So 35 levels of Prismatic Slash shouldn't be an issue. Unless I misunderstood those functions and made a mistake, at which point oops. That's why I release things as addons, just in case I screwed something up.