Less Newbie Friendly? Archmage vs. Alchemist

[Fortescue]

I think at this point in the game the original intent of making Alchemist the "intro spellcaster" and Archmage the "slightly more advanced" caster is not really working out that way in practice. Lets do an outline for clarity:

Alchemists Must Learn:

• How to use their specific Gems system (an entire system no other class uses)
  • Gem effects on bombs, how to get gems from gear, how to use gems on your golem, etc...
• How to control 2 party members at all times (asking a LOT of a new player)
• How to fight with a pet with suicidal AI
• How to change your weapon element for your secondary attack (Command Staff)
• How to level a melee character and a caster character at the same time
• How to gear (and rune) a melee character and a caster character at the same time
• What "infusing" your bomb is, and having to do that instead of just being allowed to throw Fire bombs with one button and Acid with different button
• How to fight without blowing yourself / your golem up with your own bombs

Archmages Must Learn:

• How to autocast Shield Rune
• How to fight using Beam attacks
• How to use Dimension Door
• How to level a caster
• How to gear a caster

I'm not trying to be snarky here, I really think Alchemist is more complex than Archmage in some ways, and that Archmage itself is not actually complex at all to use effectively (though maybe not 100% optimally). The latter remains true of Alchemist, though, and any class really, as they all have optimal ways to be played that are not immediately obvious to the uninitiated.

Now, those who agree with me are left with 2 paths that I can see. Either A) We let newbies play Gandalf dressup and just pick Archmage from the time they install the game, or B) We cut some of the complexity out of Alchemist in the less interesting / fun areas (gem management), and improve the Golem AI, and improve the more interesting aspects of their character.

Examples:
Better interactions with your golem. Elemental coatings from bombs is a great step in that direction, but there is a lot more that could be done to make yourself and your golem feel more like a real team.

A Class point based supplement to Staff Combat that offers more short range combat options, for when throwing a bomb might not be the best answer (IT IS ALWAYS THE BEST ANSWER, UNLESS YOU CAN THROW AN AXE).

--------------------

Those examples are low hanging fruit, there is a lot more that could be done with the Alchemist class if it gave up the notion of being "meant for newbies" and embraced some healthy complexity in the form of Golem interactions and mixing short and long range combat more. Especially now that Staffs have been nerfed on traditional melee characters fairly heavily, this could be a great new niche to expand on for Alchemists without making them into Arcane Blades.

I'm about to pass out in my chair. Goodnight!

[stinkstink]

Here are the things a new player needs to know to get an Alchemist to the East on normal/adventure:

-Invest in bombs (to be fair, Throw Bomb's misleading numbers can fool new players into thinking they aren't absurdly powerful, but anyone who asks for advice building an Alchemist in chat will get five replies in unison telling them to 5/5/5/0 bombs.)
-Always use the highest tier of gem you have as ammo
-Don't stand directly next to enemies if you can help it

That's it. Most of what you listed for Alchemists is unnecessary. People have beaten the Master without even knowing they could level up and equip their golem.

[SageAcrin]

Actually I didn't know about the gem tier thing and I still made it East for the first time, and cleared Rak'shor, within a few tries with one. Without knowing about the revisit areas back west.

Granted, I have a lot more experience with Roguelikes than most, so that helped... but not that much, probably.

By contrast, I've seen players that say they can't play Archmages at all, that have multiple other clears under their belts, just because their mentality is so preemptive in general. You have to think ahead, not react to situations, and as fast as ToME moves, with so much potentially happening in one turn, that can be pretty hard.

[RandomKesaranPasaran]

Most of the things you list that alchemists need to learn can either be figured out in five minutes tops by looking at tooltips (please don't tell me things like Extract Gem or Create Alchemist Gem are difficult to figure out), not actually complex to begin with (levelling the golem is far simpler than levelling an actual character), or flat out untrue (I can count the types of situations where controlling the golem was needed on one hand when I cleared an alchemist and they're pretty much all non-combat). 5/5/5/whatever the bomb tree, grab an infusion or two that you like, and put some points into buffing up your golem and give him eye beams and a couple decent pieces of equipment, that's basically been it so far as I know and as far as I've been able to tell that hasn't really changed with 1.2. It's not a tall order.

[Fortescue]

Most of the things you list that alchemists need to learn can either be figured out in five minutes tops by looking at tooltips (please don't tell me things like Extract Gem or Create Alchemist Gem are difficult to figure out), not actually complex to begin with (levelling the golem is far simpler than levelling an actual character), or flat out untrue (I can count the types of situations where controlling the golem was needed on one hand when I cleared an alchemist and they're pretty much all non-combat). 5/5/5/whatever the bomb tree, grab an infusion or two that you like, and put some points into buffing up your golem and give him eye beams and a couple decent pieces of equipment, that's basically been it so far as I know and as far as I've been able to tell that hasn't really changed with 1.2. It's not a tall order.

Took me 3 or 4 games to realize you even could level up your golem, and that was after realizing you can equip it.

[Suslik]

Archmage is ridiculously OP at killing weak stuff and stuff that cannot approach you before you tribeam them to death. However, if you build in wrong direction you will inevitably find yourself in situation that something accidentally 1-shots you, usually it happens around lvl 25. Archmages are quite difficult indeed to build properly.

Alchemist's may be difficult due to 2 reasons: it may be not obvious how OP bombs at 5/5/5/0 are and it may be no obvious that you can gear/lvlup your golem. It's not rocket science archmage building decisions, it just may come non-obvious.

Easiest class for me has always been summoner, shame it starts locked.

[RandomKesaranPasaran]

Took me 3 or 4 games to realize you even could level up your golem, and that was after realizing you can equip it.

If it takes you three or four games to realize what the Interact with Golem button that starts on your bar for talents actually does then perhaps you should be looking somewhere else to find out what the problem here is.

[Fortescue]

Took me 3 or 4 games to realize you even could level up your golem, and that was after realizing you can equip it.

If it takes you three or four games to realize what the Interact with Golem button that starts on your bar for talents actually does then perhaps you should be looking somewhere else to find out what the problem here is.

Fiesty! Keep in mind this was back when I was brand new at ToME and didn't know anything about it or Alchemist, which is meant to be ideal for people who don't know anything about ToME.

[Gatewalker]

I had a five paragraph point by point response typed up, but my tone in it got extremely insulting so I deleted it. Here's a basic summary of my points:

Alchemist I found very easy to learn, simply reading the talents will tell you most of how an Alch is supposed to operate. Two talents relating to the golem mention that it can use equipment, and the golem's picture gets the same level-up icon that the player's does when you gain a level.

Archmage on the other hand, if we're talking about newbies here, has four class trees that aren't even accessible until you unlock them(Storm, Stone, Ice, Wildfire). And while Tribeem works wonders earlygame, you'll need a lot more than that to even make it East, much less clear the game. Also the sheer amount of talents they get(especially once you have Storm/Stone/Ice/Wildfire) can make it hard for even someone who does know the game well to decide how to build and what to do.

[SageAcrin]

I will agree that the Golem talents could use a line in there on one of them, telling you to take control of the golem to assign points, though.

[Fortescue]

I had a five paragraph point by point response typed up, but my tone in it got extremely insulting so I deleted it. Here's a basic summary of my points:

Alchemist I found very easy to learn, simply reading the talents will tell you most of how an Alch is supposed to operate. Two talents relating to the golem mention that it can use equipment, and the golem's picture gets the same level-up icon that the player's does when you gain a level.

Archmage on the other hand, if we're talking about newbies here, has four class trees that aren't even accessible until you unlock them(Storm, Stone, Ice, Wildfire). And while Tribeem works wonders earlygame, you'll need a lot more than that to even make it East, much less clear the game. Also the sheer amount of talents they get(especially once you have Storm/Stone/Ice/Wildfire) can make it hard for even someone who does know the game well to decide how to build and what to do.

You don't have to worry about explaining categories they don't have unlocked (are invisible) to newbies. That isn't a valid argument. One thing I will agree on though is that stat allocation on Alchemist is actually a lot simpler since they don't have nearly the mana issues something like say a Lightning Archmage will have.

[emblempride]

By contrast, I've seen players that say they can't play Archmages at all, that have multiple other clears under their belts, just because their mentality is so preemptive in general. You have to think ahead, not react to situations, and as fast as ToME moves, with so much potentially happening in one turn, that can be pretty hard.

Yeah, used to hate Archmages because I'd finally get my build going beyond tri-beam and Meta/starting my advanced tree and then suddenly I'm getting instagibbed by things I couldn't see on Normal when the dungeons stop being lit post Tier-2 despite having MANY counters But I loved auto-explore so much, had to either go Thalore for workable health without shields and sacrifice Shaloren benefits or really think carefully in a place like the Elven Ruins.

ToME is accessible, so if you're just starting you're either: an experienced roguelike player who is likely to understand the game, the importance of patience, each character's strengths and weaknesses, and the complexity of a character and their play styles fairly quickly, or an average gamer without much roguelike experience who will most likely better understand a character centered around blowing a lot of shit up in one go and having a meat shield absorb damage for you. The Archmage, specifically without it's advanced trees since we're talking about being beginner-friendly, is a lot to absorb as it's not really clear what you should do. The Alchemist, has three clear things to focus on - your bomb, your choice of infusion, your golem.