Skirmisher 2.0 Idea Thread - Lets Get to Work!

[Fortescue]

HELLO FRIENDS!
Based on feedback and some of my own observations, Skirmisher needs work! It is functional, yes, but it is not where I want it / envisioned it to be in terms of play style. For the next major iteration of the class there are already a few things that I want to change which did not make it into the initial release.

Pace Yourself
This was never meant to interact with Fatigue, it was meant to be a flat discount on Stamina costs that operated independently of the Fatigue system. This is important because Skirmishers were meant to use light armor! That makes a Fatigue discount useless. Next point...

Acrobatics
Should not function in heavy / massive armours, period.

Buckler Expertise / Mastery
A bit of oversight on my part, I should have realized a skill that only gave melee block chance was not going to be that useful as you're Vaulting and Rolling away from anything near you. In the future, this block chance should be unified into a single skill, with the other getting new functionality. Feel free to suggest what that should be

Leather Armor Mastery
Something that has been whispered about amongst the devs, we all think this is something that should exist if nothing else for Marauders. Rogues in general should all get access to this skill, and the main benefit provided is instead of lots of extra armor and hardiness, bonus movement speed while wearing Leather. Sounds great for Skirmisher! This would be added to Technique / Combat Generic tree.

Heavy Slinger / Bombardment
A new tree that was meant to be included in the initial release, I wanted there to be a AoE specialist tree that focused on fire and concussive bombs that you were able to sling. I still think this is something that should be worked in, despite DarkGod saying they can't have "grenades". I need to approach him about this again soon, because lack of AoE is something people have commented makes Skirmisher a little tedious to play at times.

BUGS!!!
At the moment, Bash and Smash has the unintended effect of consuming 2 turns when used. This is being fixed asap but I do not know when the patch for it will go live on Steam / etc... Please bring up any other bugs you've noticed in the live game and I will add them to this list. Be sure to bug report them as well in the appropriate forum!

[Fortescue]

Buckler Expertise
Changed to give % block chance to melee AND ranged in one talent.

Buckler Mastery
Position swapped with Counter Shot.
Rank 1: Your Buckler Expertise block chance now increases by a further 2% per skill rank
Rank 2: While equipped with a Shield you get -5% Fatigue
Rank 3: Your Bash and Smash now dazes enemies for 3 turns if you hit with the follow up shot
Rank 4: While equipped with a Shield you gain 5% resist all
Rank 5: Your Counter Shots are now guaranteed critical hits

[Davion Fuxa]

In regards to Pace Yourself and the Acrobatics Tree, I actually wonder if there is a problem with letting people have the choice of using Heavy Armor. Is there any real reason to deny players the option to using Heavy Armor here? Personally, I think it is fine to leave this as is and just improve and add in Technique/Mobility (or a similar category) because it adds more to the choices a player can pursue in developing his character; it may not be as you intended, but that doesn't mean it is undesirable.

Buckler Expertise and Buckler Mastery being merged into one seems like a good idea to me. Personally I think both skills are decent in effect, but they aren't worth the investment alone - together as one effect though they would likely be a good investment. Having a reworked Buckler Mastery give some passive reworking to Buckler Expertise looks good too.

I have to agree with Darkgod that there shouldn't be grenades. We have Metaclass:Mages for those who want a playstyle with AoE abilities. Archery type gameplay should revolve around letting shots fire off quickly, letting loose a bunch all at once, utility like debuffs and knockback, or beam shots (like Piercing Arrow). Potentially a route to consider taking out multiple enemies is to employ a few Beam attacks - it would probably fit will with Called Shots in the ability to hit whatever enemy you want regardless of what other enemies are in the way while hitting all the enemies in the way as a bonus.

Anyhow, some ideas for a group play category:

Ricochet Shot (Active, Could Work as a Passive) - Similar to Chain Lightning, you fire off a shot which rebounds off a target to hit another - possible more then one rebound. Maybe make it work off walls to hit enemies around corners.

Spinning Shot (Active, Could Work as a Passive) - You launch a shot that fires in a beam and spins all opponents that it hits causing Confusion on them.

Shockwave Shot (Active, Could Work as a Passive) - You fire a shot with such force that it leaves a wake that damages opponents inside a cone area.

Finishing Shot (Active) - It's an execution abilty, maybe like Death Blow or something new.

******

A couple of other things to note is that along with perhaps adding in Technique/Mobility (or a similar category) I think that Cunning/Dirty Fighting should be added in as an unlocked category for the Skirmisher to use. Besides giving more options to spend class points with, Cunning/Dirty Fighting has several talents that would synergize well with what the Skirmisher has to offer - Dirty Fighting and Backstab with Noggin Knocker, Switch Place with Vault, Cripple adding another debuff to use.

I also think that with the current skills, it might be wise to switch Noggin Knocker to the 2nd Talent slot in Called Shots with Kill Shot moving to the 3rd Talent slot. Noggin Knocker looks like it could be more useful earlier since it has a lower stamina cost, a debuff, and still let's you bypass enemies to hit the targetting one. Kill Shot I find is a great skill - once you are partly through the 2nd tier dungeons.

You might also want to move Bash and Smash to the 3rd Talent slot in Buckler Training and have Counter Shots go the 2nd Talent Slot - but I haven't used Counter Shot yet so I don't know how detrimental or beneficial that might be early on. This might be something to leave alone.

[Zaive]

I noticed that the sling's triple shot sustain seems to do 100% damage per shot regardless of the tooltip.

[Basalt]

I played a skirmisher up to lvl 42 before getting nuked at the entrance to Rakshor Pride. The lack of aoe was very noticeable but even more so was the lack of real decisions for class points. My build was effectively done by lvl 30 or so and at that point it was just a matter of topping up talents and maybe picking up the stragglers. I had planned to pick up the Poison tree eventually, but that was more of a bonus. Another locked tree or even an unlocked one would lead to more choices and more possible builds.

[Fortescue]

In regards to Pace Yourself and the Acrobatics Tree, I actually wonder if there is a problem with letting people have the choice of using Heavy Armor. Is there any real reason to deny players the option to using Heavy Armor here?.

Yes, theme. You are a tricky fast guy, not a slow heavy armor tank. Besides that, once you get a move speed bonus for wearing Leather you really wouldn't want heavy anyway, it would be less useful in most situations. Same thing for Rogues really, can't wait for them to get Leather mastery (they also have access to Acrobatics now, if anyone didn't know!).

I like your suggestions for new attacks, I had been running low on ideas for them back when the design phase was over for 1.2. I like Ricochet a lot and I think that is a real contender for making into the class.

[Fortescue]

I played a skirmisher up to lvl 42 before getting nuked at the entrance to Rakshor Pride. The lack of aoe was very noticeable but even more so was the lack of real decisions for class points. My build was effectively done by lvl 30 or so and at that point it was just a matter of topping up talents and maybe picking up the stragglers. I had planned to pick up the Poison tree eventually, but that was more of a bonus. Another locked tree or even an unlocked one would lead to more choices and more possible builds.

Yes, I wanted to have at least 1 more class category at release, because I knew they were very light on choices without more categories. At least 1 new attack tree focused on AoE is absolutely needed.

[Davion Fuxa]

Yes, theme. You are a tricky fast guy, not a slow heavy armor tank. Besides that, once you get a move speed bonus for wearing Leather you really wouldn't want heavy anyway, it would be less useful in most situations. Same thing for Rogues really, can't wait for them to get Leather mastery (they also have access to Acrobatics now, if anyone didn't know!).

If the new category comes in and makes Lighter Armor more preferably then I would suggest leaving the Acrobatics skill as it is for working with heavy armor. Players looking to benefit more in Light Armor can go pick up the related skills in the new category while those Players who would still rather use Heavy Armor can still be able to do so - if not as perhaps effectively as those in Light Armor.

Theme shouldn't be a reason to prevent someone from playing the class how they want. Balance might be reason as well as preventing exploits, but I don't see how Heavy Armor Skirmishers would be anymore power then Light Armor ones. Ultimately I'd just let Players play the class however they want and look for ways to improve the benefits of players playing the class how you want them too instead.

[Kureyn]

I see someone already suggested a similar ability to the first one, but I have three increasingly ridiculous ideas:

Carom Shot, like a smaller Slime Spit, perhaps with a Confuse chance signifying you knocked 'em in the noggin;
Glue Bomb, which deals a very small amount of Nature damage but slows and/or roots a large radius, allowing you to get outta there without letting them give chase; and finally
Manslinger, which probably needs a better name (Dudeapult? Trebuchump?), but grabs a guy (by the limb?) with your sling and launches him at other enemies. Like You Shall Be My Weapon but modified by your equipped sling, to a certain degree. (Also sorta like the badass new Hurricane Throw.)

[Fortescue]

I'm thinking that I should replace Sling Bombardment with a Ricochet Shot after reading these comments. That doesn't solve the "needs more trees" thing, but it does solve the "not enough AoE, and Bombardment doesn't jive" thing.

[jayseesee]

Bug: Bombardment does not reduce damage or increase damage with talent points. Tested 1/5 and 2/5, both did same base damage as "shoot".

[Isotope-X]

If you merge Buckler Expertise and Mastery, how about the simple addition of Riposte? It would make blocking much more attractive.

[Plak]

I'm currently 3 out of 4 prides done with a Thalore Skirmisher (Insane), and I want to say that I'm really enjoying this class - despite its flaws and the relative lack of active skills, it's a fun design and a really good base.

I think Bombardment is great design and a neat, unique skill actually. It's a build choice, and perhaps Skirmisher's only real build choice currently besides Traps/Poisons. Skirmisher is all about high cost, high regeneration, and Bombardment stretches it to its fullest extent. You can either go for maxing regular actives and getting Eye of the Tiger and not have to worry so much about resources, or use those skills for their secondary effects and to hit the back of the crowd, while relying on Bombardment to dish out very high damage to exposed foes without the need of a prodigy, but at the cost of an extremely high strain on your ammo and stamina. The damage should probably be buffed a bit with the bug fix (at least 80% weapon damage at 5/5) because right now it feels on the higher end of balanced just right.

If Pace Yourself is changed to no longer interact with Fatigue, it will be hard to justify using a high tier shield that isn't Lunar Shield. You barely gain anything from using a better shield (though Bash and Smash's autocrits is good with shields of crippling), and Fatigue matters a lot for such a stamina heavy class. I do think there's an interesting trade off the be designed here, but there needs to be strong incentive to use better shields.

Buckler Mastery has three rather boring passives. With the Skirmisher having high mobility and the ability to snipe casters through the crowd, I don't think passive immunity from bolts is necessary or fits the overall design of the class, and it's weird that shields can completely negate things they (usually) cannot block. Melee block chance with a reward for a successful block is odd on a class that has innately high defense, and I don't think Counter Shot accomplishes a whole lot.

I would advise against giving Skirmisher yet another source of resist all: Eternal Warrior already gives 15% res all and +3% cap, and this stat scales exponentially. Any more would make this class tankier than it should be with a Crafty Hands build.

Regarding Leather Armor Mastery, this sounds a lot like what is currently the Mobility tree (and it fits so well with the Skirmisher design that I was surprised not to see it there). Mobility is trash and no one but Brawlers ever uses it, but it could be reworked into something good for Skirmisher and other rogues.

As for a new tree, I think Skirmishers would benefit a lot from a Melee tree. They're still rogues after all and unlike archers they should know some dirty tricks to use in a pinch, perhaps using their sling as a makeshift flail (requiring ammo but not expending it) not to deal heavy damage, but to hit vital points and disable their foes. While Skirmishers are highly mobile when it comes to staying out of range, they don't actually have many way to safely get in melee against casters. Because of this, I think they should have access to melee skills with strong shutdown potency to reward going close to a dangerous foe (and disabling Breathing Room) for a couple of turns, but very limited kill power to remain mostly useless against trash mob cornering you. Vaulting over summoned undead to hit The Master's head/throat before quickly tumbling to safety would be pretty neat, I think.

[pheonix89]

Hmm, Inertial and Eye Shot from Archery-Slings both would be good fits, and I frankly rather dislike the redundancy of Sling Supremacy. Perhaps give Archery-Slings and replace Sling Supremacy with something else? Multishot and Bombardment are so similar that Bombardment might need to be dumped and replaced, though.

[Fortescue]

Bug: Bombardment does not reduce damage or increase damage with talent points. Tested 1/5 and 2/5, both did same base damage as "shoot".

Did you report this in the bug forum? Please do if you did not yet.