Make archers less annoying to play, please

[kyuubee]

This once powerful class is in a terrible state now (actually for quite some time) due to reloading. I agree that it makes sense that archers have limited ammo, but its current implementation makes playing archer very annoying and quite dangerous, leaving aside that it doesn't make much sense either, I don't see a lot of flavor difference between a quiver with unlimited ammo (i.e. which magically reloads itself each shot) and a quiver which magically creates ammo when you use reload.
I play archers in ADoM right now, archers there have limited ammo, they should gather the arrows which they and monsters shoot, should look for arrows, should make their own arrows, should identify and bless their arrows and it's still not nearly as annoying as ToME4 system due to 2 reasons:
a) Their stacks may be significantly higher, there is no quiver size limit, you usually have 30-100+ stack of your most mundane arrows.
b) You can easily switch between stacks, when you shot all your arrows you will be promoted to switch to another stack without opening your inventory.
These two things make you being able to shoot freely in encounters while in ToME4 you are forced to retreat after shooting like a dozen or two of arrows which is nothing. Also pressing reloading after every encounter is annoying too.
I understand that ToME4 philosophy is to avoid expendables like scrolls, potions and ammo (still some potions exist like the Blood of Life or the Heart of the Queen of Sand) and I remember that old system made separate quivers obsolete (everybody used the quivers which were supposedly attached to their bows), but even if quivers were slightly large like ~20 or so and if you was promoted to switch between quivers in your inventory without opening it as soon as you shoot all your arrows in the current quiver (for the cost of a turn of course), and (possibly) if quivers in your inventory reloaded automatically (probably slowly than manually), it might be better for the class overall. Consider that some of class powers like Aim were designed that the archer stayed at a single place while shooting a lot.
Right now there is a little choice what to play if one wants to play a decent ranged class - some sort of a mage is the only option since you are not limited to 10 usually single target rather low damage arrows per encounter, your mana/psi etc is more than enough for several encounters in a row and it restores automatically without you pressing some button to reload it.

[Orangeflame]

While I personally find archers annoying to play as well, it's only the early-game where ammunition is annoying.
A good 'battle-ranger's' quiver fixes all your problems, and an 'of annihilation' ego added on makes for a reliable quiver.
Check shops (Derth, Last Hope, Shatur) for quivers, and hope to find a good one to buy!

Late game there is an unlimited ammo quiver, and randarts can have enough capacity and reloads per turn to seem unlimited.

[Faeryan]

I guess this is a matter of playing style. Personally I think having to reload in mid-fight creates a nice strategic obstacle to overcome in the early game (later on diminishes due to bigger quivers and more powerful skills) while between-fights reloading is handled by autoexplore that first rests to full health and at the same time reloads the quiver before going onward.

I think the system the original poster is referring to is similar to that of ToME 2 and I remember it being horrible. Not sure if it was ADoM or some other roguelike that I'm thinking but having half your inventory filled with quivers for big fights in which you can't gather arrows was awful.

Basically now you can stack more quivers if you want and whenever you run out of ammo you can equip a new one.
If you don't have more quivers you can now hit a button to use a skill to reload instead of running around the countryside to gather your lost ammo. This way it's a lot easier and safer, also less time consuming.

[Fortescue]

I agree w/ Faeryan's comments, but all the same, I do have some ideas to make Archer more interesting and fun to play. The best of these so far is to introduce a system where if your 2nd equipment set weapon is a 2H melee, you will be able to use to some new Talents that draw your secondary weapon + attack at the same time. For example, instead of always having to Disengage to make distance, one of these "quick draw attacks" could have knockback. There could even be a simple combo where the next skill in the category quick-swapped to your bow and performed a follow-up attack. I haven't had much time to really look closely into this yet, though. I have irons in a lot of fires...

[HousePet]

How about a spare quiver in the quick swap?

[ohioastro]

ToME has poorly documented automation options, and you feel it the most in classes like archers.

I set reload to "auto-use when there are no enemies in sight", which takes care of the reload issue after battles. You can equip a full backup quiver (just remember to reload it before you unequip it), so you only lose 1 round - you don't need to reload mid-battle, and it's actually counterproductive to do so.

I do question what we're gaining here with the ammunition, but there are work-arounds that bypass most of the tedium. Part of the problem is that the vets who design the systems automate everything and simply don't realize what the base game looks like - archers and celestials have *awful* non-automated play, for example...

[HousePet]

I've won with both celestial classes without automation.

Resting also automatically reloads ammo.

I think the issue is more that you don't have many options once you are out of ammo, whereas other classes do.

[donkatsu]

Remember before the charms system was implemented, when people would carry around like 12 staffs of channeling or whatever? That was determined to be unintended behavior, and I feel that quivers are sort of in the same position except not as overpowered. You typically don't want to reload in combat. What you want to do is carry around as many decent quivers as you can collect, and equip a new one whenever your current quiver runs out. It's like reloading but you get a full quiver in just one turn. And then, when you're done, you go through every quiver that you used, and rest to reload them individually.

Not exactly the same issue that's brought up in the OP, but it goes against the rest of ToME's design philosophy in the same way that the old activatable powers on equipment were, and as long as the quiver system is being looked at, this should probably be addressed as well.

[HousePet]

Thought of some talents that could be useful/interesting.

Bow Whack: active. Smack a melee range enemy with your bow, it is after all a big piece of wood. Uses Bow damage modifiers but not ammo or ammo modifiers.
Bow Trip: active. Sidestep and stick your bow out as an enemy lunges at you. You move one square to the side, they move into your square and are stunned.
Flail: active. Smack a melee range enemy with your loaded sling. Does full sling+ammo damage. Requires 1 ammo, but doesn't use it.
Garrote: active. Wrap your sling around a melee range enemies throat, catching them in a choking hold.

[malboro_urchin]

Flail sounds amazing! I love it!

[nogardark]

I just wanted to see this post dead I am going to be a a spiteful necromancer and revive this abomination.

First, for everyone, try to play an archer for a few levels before making such judgements about them. "Archers are bad" has become a meme, just like people love to repeat that luminous horrors are so scary and stuff like that, most people have not even tried archers with such a bad reputation they have gained.

Second to address OP's concern the reloading mechanic is just that a mechanic that comes with the class to create some strategic considerations when you play with them making them more differentiated than other classes, just like archmages have to play around their low hp archers have to play around having to reload, this penalty starts being noticeable but later in the game has very little influence in the way you fight your battles, maybe you missed the skill that gives more reloads per turn, up to 4 arrows/stones per turn besides this the skill works as you move; if you play archer for a while you will find that your biggest resource is your positioning, you will find yourself moving a lot and replenishing your quiver effortlessly.


Evolving from OP's concern some people have started to throw ideas around to improve the archer's perceived flaws.
Personally I feel that archers are a medium to strong class already, but more importantly have a very well differentiated playing pattern and have defined weaknesses making them in my opinion a low priority class to change.

I voice my opinion not for concern that the class is weak or that the changes proposed in the current state will be implemented, but to let a dissenting voice be heard because as I said I feel that the class is very misunderstood.

If you come from playing berserkers or bump attackers don't feel discouraged with the different play pattern that archers posses. It takes just a bit to get used to, but, if you pass the rough start you will find that archers are a fun and, specially, a strong class to play.

Anyway thanks to OP and everyone who is discussing in this topic for making archers(one of my favourite classes) visible for a while .

[bpat]

I agree w/ Faeryan's comments, but all the same, I do have some ideas to make Archer more interesting and fun to play. The best of these so far is to introduce a system where if your 2nd equipment set weapon is a 2H melee, you will be able to use to some new Talents that draw your secondary weapon + attack at the same time. For example, instead of always having to Disengage to make distance, one of these "quick draw attacks" could have knockback. There could even be a simple combo where the next skill in the category quick-swapped to your bow and performed a follow-up attack. I haven't had much time to really look closely into this yet, though. I have irons in a lot of fires...

Adding a melee component would overlap a lot with Temporal Wardens, which was actually a major problem a while ago before Archers gained the Traps, Poisons, and Archery Excellence categories (back then Archers were just bad Temporal Wardens).

[Zizzo]

Second to address OP's concern the reloading mechanic is just that a mechanic that comes with the class to create some strategic considerations when you play with them [...]

Pointless annoyance is not a "strategic consideration". I have played Archers, thank you very much, and frankly, I would have given up on them a long time ago were it not for the No Reloading addon (which, BTW, I can wholeheartedly recommend to the OP as solving all your problems).

[nogardark]

Second to address OP's concern the reloading mechanic is just that a mechanic that comes with the class to create some strategic considerations when you play with them [...]

Pointless annoyance is not a "strategic consideration". I have played Archers, thank you very much, and frankly, I would have given up on them a long time ago were it not for the No Reloading addon (which, BTW, I can wholeheartedly recommend to the OP as solving all your problems).

Man you are entitled to your opinion, I am just trying to make a point or two, first archers are not weak, and second if you still find reloading annoying after upgrading the reload skill, then, well it is your right to like or dislike stuff.

Again there is an intention behind the mechanic, if we could use a more moderate language we could communicate better, the word pointless leaves no space to discussion you are disregarding everything from the beginning.

[Faeryan]

Second to address OP's concern the reloading mechanic is just that a mechanic that comes with the class to create some strategic considerations when you play with them [...]

Pointless annoyance is not a "strategic consideration". I have played Archers, thank you very much, and frankly, I would have given up on them a long time ago were it not for the No Reloading addon (which, BTW, I can wholeheartedly recommend to the OP as solving all your problems).

How does this add-on work? Dies it make quivers have endless arrows or just automate reloading stuff?
Archers with endless arrows on my opinion sounds laughable. Sure I'd like a Berserker with range 9 or an Archmage with infinite mana, but it'd be boring to play.