Subclasses

[Planetus]

I'm not sure if this idea belongs in the ToME 4 or T-Engine 4 Ideas threads. It would be a rather substantial change to both the game engine and the game itself (though probably less severe for the engine) and I think it's implementation would probably not come until after the new campaign is released, if it is developed at all.

The basic idea is simple: replace the Generic talent mechanism with Subclasses, where each character chooses a subclass from a (possibly only slightly) limited list on character creation. It could be made such that characters could change subclasses at a later date (Fortress, Last Hope, etc) as well, but that may not be worth it, and would involve some complex design decisions. The current generic points that a character gains on most levels up would become Subclass points, be spent the same way, etc. It's just that not all Berserkers would have the same set of talent trees. Additional talent trees gained through game mechanics, such as Anti-Magic or any of those gained through escorts, would be added to your subclass list.

So, for example, a Berserker could take the subclass Armorer, which would grant him the Conditioning tree, a tree with Thick Skin and Weapons Mastery in it, and maybe one or two other appropriate tank/warrior trees. Or, he could take Tracker and get Mobility, Field Control, and Survival. Or, he could take Spellweaver and get Divination, Aegis, and Conveyance, and a mana bar, and maybe a talent to boost mana regen ala the Arcanum class pack addon. Or a Corruptor could take the Chants and Hymns of the Celestial classes. All gained at the normal 1.2-1.3 mastery level.

Certain talents like Armor Training may be moved to a universally accessible talent tree, as it's something anyone can benefit from at least one point in (and currently is available to anyone for a mere pittance of gold in Last Hope). Each subclass would use at most two resources, for the paired resources of Positive and Negative energy, or Psi and Feedback, so you wouldn't see the massive stacking of resource bars you can get with Adventurers. It may not end up as simple as taking each class's generic set and making it a subclass, but I would think that talent tree repetition between subclasses would be acceptable.

Is this something worth pursuing? Any other ideas to improve it? It would add a lot of replay value, but would also make character creation a more complex choice.

[Faeryan]

A complex game and a complex idea. Can't say much before actually trying it.
The idea of gaining a class tree belonging to other class (possibly only from the same archetype selection) would sound nice, but there'd have to be a drawback. Maybe something like replace your class tree with one from the same class type class skills. For example a Berserker could change his Two handed maiming tree for Archery excellence by paying 2k gold. The new tree would start locked.

[Delmuir]

Love the idea but oh man, the balance issues! It would be very, very tricky to keep it all balanced because of the hyper-specialized way the things scales, etc.

You could end up with severely overpowered builds quite easily.

I mean, i love the idea but it'd be a huge amount of work and redesign. Perhaps you could start with something smaller?

[SageAcrin]

I've actually heard an idea like this before, as a replacement for Race mechanics, and suggested it be a mechanic for a future campaign down the line.

Naga seems appropriate; Their class structure seems much more open than most of Eyal's races.

But as an addition to the main game? I think it's something that's best done when the game's not out of beta and fairly finalized, really. It's kinda late in the game to shake up everything about the game's balance.

[Planetus]

Yes, this would be a major change to the game mechanics. Even if DarkGod decides he likes the idea, I wouldn't expect it to come out until after the new Orc campaign, which I think will be coming as the opening of T-5, or at least a major change to the game itself.

As for a 'smaller' version, the only thing I can think of is limiting the mechanics to the metaclass, so an Archmage would be able to choose the Archmage, Necromancer, or Alchemist generic trees. I don't think that would overpower things, but I also don't think that would allow many tempting builds. What would a necromancer do with alchemist gems? What would an archer do with the Conditioning tree? What difference would it make for Celestials, or any other meta-class?

Or, maybe, we could make a unifying meta-class set of trees, and the player chooses one more tree to add to it from the unique trees of the meta-class. Meh, still not too tempting to me.

Any other 'smaller' ideas?

[Delmuir]

Any other 'smaller' ideas?

Nope.

I think that's a pretty solid case against.