Bloodied Berserker

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Fortescue
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Bloodied Berserker

#1 Post by Fortescue »

Bloodied Berserker is the name of a mod project I would like to undertake with the goal of making the base Berserker class a LOT more interesting. As it exists, it is really, well, not interesting!

I understand the point of the initial 2 melee classes being that they are simple to use and understand, but the move set offered to low level Berserkers is as generic and uninteresting as they can get.

So how do you spice it up without adding a new resource type? Put greater emphasis on the risk / reward meta-game of fighting at lower-than-maximum life points.

As it stands, the only ability that interacts with your current life points in this manner is Vitality, and that is just a generic talent, not a class specific one (Bulwark also has access to it). It also doesn't scale really, it just waits until you are at 50% hp to activate.

I have a fairly easy to implement (I hope) set of changes that would go a LONG way towards making the class more flavorful from the beginning, and address the lack of interesting unique mechanics.
  1. Replace Two-handed maiming with Bloodthirst
    A pair of 2H talent sets instead of a pair of Shield talent sets is the main difference between Berserkers and Bulwarks right now. Bloodthirst is the most interesting, useful, and flavorful talent set unique to Berserkers and as such should be given immediate access. Two-handed maiming is not really interesting because the Sunder skills are not interesting and they make up half the set.
  2. Exchange the positions of Mortal Terror and Bloodbath
    Bloodbath relies on critical hits to actually do anything, so why is it you get access to that before the talent that gives you +3% critical hit chance per point?
  3. Bloodrage
    Instead of a passive that triggers on enemy deaths, change this into passive that gives you a Strength bonus which scales with your current life. At full life, no bonus, but for each missing % of life, you gain that % (base) Strength bonus. The scaling would need worked out, but the general idea is sound. This would create a lot of interesting situations and really add a lot of flavor to the class, allowing for narrow victories and a unique interaction with the Adrenaline Surge talent (lets you spend HP when Stamina runs out to fuel abilities) which Bulwarks will not be able to duplicate.
  4. Berserker
    For your namesake ability, it really isn't that interesting. Just a passive set of stat tweaks, with a penalty that is only really worth worrying about in the early game. That is a problem, if you ask me, because why wouldn't a Berserker be able to go Berserk from the start of the game? So, swap it with Death Dance so you have your namesake ability from the get-go. Next, make it less punishing for low level players! The concept as it stands seems to be, you are fighting recklessly with an emphasis on smashing your foes. From a flavor standpoint, that indicates to me there is no reason to lower your armor rating, but also no reason to raise your accuracy. You are smashing wildly, not running around naked! So, what if it just raised your power and lowered your defense rating? That way low level players could enjoy Berserking without giving up their armor rating. They would get hit more often, but the damage would be more consistently managed by armor. Throughout the rest of the game keeping this 10 armor will allow players to fine-tune their risk taking strategy in conjunction with the redesigned Bloodrage as damage will be less spikey in general.

    For initial testing I would literally just remove the armor penalty and accuracy bonus, and see how that went. It would not really be interesting yet, though. Part of me thinks Berserking shouldn't be something someone can do non-stop, it should be tiring, but shouldn't just run out in the middle of a battle. To make Berserking more interesting as a mechanic it would be nice if once activated, there was a turn limit. This turn limit would not be static, though. It would increase every time the player took damage, proportional to the damage received ideally. So for example, getting hit for 1%-10% of your max life would add 1 more round to the duration, 11-25% would add 2 rounds, 26-50% would add 3 rounds, and getting walloped for half your life or more in a single attack would add 5 rounds. To compensate for this new limitation, an increase in power! While Berserking the player would gain 5% move speed and 5% attack speed per talent rank in addition to the previous increased power bonus. Once Berserker ran out, though, it would be on cooldown for 22-19-16-13-10 turns based on talent rank, with 10 turns at 5/5.
:D

That is all for now!

I really love ToME and especially the Alchemist class. It really raised the bar for my expectations of what classes in ToME are capable of in terms of flavor and interesting mechanics, so I hope to be able to implement these alterations to Berserker.

What do you think? Berserker fine like it is? Maybe I'm missing something special about it? Or, you like my ideas?

Thomas
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#2 Post by Thomas »

Hi Fortescue ^^

I love Berserkers and pretty much play them exclusively. If I am playing another class, I am just trying to play them like a Berserker anyway.

I really like what you are putting forward! And I agree with your ideas. I really like what you are going to do about the Berserker skill- there's no reason it should reduce your armor. Defense, sure, because you're being reckless, but it's not going to make your armor weaker! Also, making it similar to Rampage (activated and can be extended by damage taken) will make it a lot more interesting than a sustain you just whack on and forget about. Perfect idea with extending it with damage taken by the way... berserkers take a lot of damage and regen through it; that's a core part of the class. Removing the accuracy bonus makes sense, "attacking wildly" is hardly going to improve your chance to hit something. Swapping it with death dance and removing the armor penalty will make it a much more class-defining skill that can be used from the start (as it should be).

I definitely like the idea of swapping mortal terror and bloodbath! But 2H maiming is really important to get through the lower levels (stunning blow!). But maybe not. Definitely try it out and see how the early levels are without stunning blow (I can just imagine bosses being a lot harder...)

The bloodrage change is great. As it currently is, I rarely pick it up past 1 pt, if at all. However, it will be hard to manage it and be able to gain some benefit at higher difficulties, because if you're not at full life and/or shielded you're at risk of dying quite easily. It's just too risky to be playing around on less than full hp, unless it's unavoidable! Maybe at least give SOME benefit for killing an enemy while at full life. Also, Berserkers have such high regen (especially with bloodbath stacks) that often you're sitting at (or close to) full hp after you perform the killing blow on an enemy.

Overall, strong changes and definitely heading in the right direction for improving the class! I will look forward to trying it out!
tomisgo

Delmuir
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#3 Post by Delmuir »

I tend to agree that the Berserker is a little dull to start although I'm not super familiar with the character, having only played a couple through the prides.

That being said, I do like the idea of a Berserker actually being able to "go berserk," especially from a early level. Perhaps it would be best if the penalty for doing so was very high at early levels and got less severe as you leveled. That would prevent it from being overpowered to start… you'd just a "desperation" ability that was pretty awesome.

SageAcrin
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#4 Post by SageAcrin »

Don't agree with the more major ideas here.

Stunning Blow is an incredibly key skill, particularly for newbie players just starting out. Removing it is a much bigger deal than you say, and massively lowers Berserker survivability from 1-20 with little actual payoff.

And Berserker's risk/reward is one of the most entertaining and interesting traits of the class. And the changes you state either A: Take away the only interesting trait, or B: Makes it into something more akin to Rampage, which already exists on a class people can play. Berserker(the talent)'s traits are fairly unique, and the earlygame impact is actually not so bad(the earlygame offensive bonus is much better than the later game one and somewhat makes up for the relatively higher defensive hit).

The lesser ideas I'm less negative about, though.

Bloodthirst is an iffy talent, and while that's a fairly linear idea and hard to balance, it's not necessarily bad, and has some synergy with Unstoppable. Maybe (8*TL)% Strength boost at 0 life, linearly? So, say, half that at 50% life. I can see that working, and it's hard to say it's not a trade up from what's there.

And I don't see anything wrong with swapping Bloodbath and Mortal Terror.

Fortescue
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#5 Post by Fortescue »

It is hard for me to judge the value of Stunning Blow because the tooltip doesn't explain what stunning enemies does to them :D

There are a few other changes I would make, likely including keeping access to Stunning Blow. I just hadn't had time to work out how I'd keep access to it. As far as not wanting to fight without full life, that makes sense. It is very risky, but a few small changes like not losing 10 Armor for Berserking any more would go a long way towards making some small amount of risk acceptable. Maybe also include a way to boost maximum life, such as when Berserking you gain up to 25% bonus maximum HP, giving you that much more wiggle room to play around with.

I also have an idea for an ability that would cost you x% of your own HP (maybe 5%?) that would require a target in melee range, do damage in a cone smaller than Warshout, but also knockback every enemy that wasn't your primary target while doing the same damage to them. So you would hurt yourself doing it, but also save yourself from damage if you used it to control the crowd. Torrent of Blood perhaps for a name? In general I like the idea of abilities fueled by life points because again, they feed into the constantly rising and falling life bar and risk / reward system.

Doctornull
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#6 Post by Doctornull »

Fortescue wrote:It is hard for me to judge the value of Stunning Blow because the tooltip doesn't explain what stunning enemies does to them :D
You know what Stunning does to you, right?

Same thing.

Exact same very powerful thing.
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phantomglider
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#7 Post by phantomglider »

To clarify, since he may not know what Stun does (which you can find out by hovering your mouse over the Stun icon):

You do reduced damage - I believe it's reduced by 50%, but might be reduced by as much as 70% - so it's a lot harder to kill stuff.
Movement takes double time. Not attacking, just movement. So it's a lot harder to run away.
You abilities stop cooling down, and a few of them get put on a one-turn cooldown. So there's a chance that you can't even use your emergency buttons.

Stun is obscenely powerful, and Stunning Blow causes a long enough stun that it's cooled down again before it wears off. That one talent alone is probably enough to carry a character past all the level 1 dungeons and a good chunk of the way into the midgame.
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Zonk
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#8 Post by Zonk »

Only skimmed through the OP, but one idea I once had for the Berserker sustain - replace the penalty to armor with a greater chance of being critical-hit.
That would be more risky (more damage spikes!) and 'different'.
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Fortescue
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#9 Post by Fortescue »

Zonk wrote:Only skimmed through the OP, but one idea I once had for the Berserker sustain - replace the penalty to armor with a greater chance of being critical-hit.
That would be more risky (more damage spikes!) and 'different'.
Well, more spikey incoming damage is probably not a great thing for new players, which is the target audience for the classes that don't need unlocked. It will just seem like unfair deaths because they didn't realize how much danger they were in. If instead you take it in the direction of a risk / reward dynamic where staying at lower life makes you a more dangerous combatant, the player knows full well they are also putting themselves in a (somewhat) predictable amount of danger any time they are below max life points.

Zonk
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#10 Post by Zonk »

Well some people think 'risk' = interesting but I see your points. I also happen to think Unstoppable might 'make more sense' if it lowered your death point by a lot (as in life below 0 you can go without dying) instead of giving complete, 100% invulnerability to death for X turns (which seems a bit silly to me frankly :) )
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bpat
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#11 Post by bpat »

Fortescue wrote: [*]Replace Two-handed maiming with Bloodthirst
A pair of 2H talent sets instead of a pair of Shield talent sets is the main difference between Berserkers and Bulwarks right now. Bloodthirst is the most interesting, useful, and flavorful talent set unique to Berserkers and as such should be given immediate access. Two-handed maiming is not really interesting because the Sunder skills are not interesting and they make up half the set.
I disagree with this point. Stunning Blow is pretty much the only reason Berserker's don't totally suck early game since it gives a solid stun at a low cooldown. Sunder Armor is nice too since it helps a lot against enemies like Bulwarks and such, especially on higher difficulties where they have absurd amounts of armor. I agree that other two talents are pretty terrible but the first two are both very good.
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Delmuir
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Re: Bloodied Berserker

#12 Post by Delmuir »

I think the principle is fine but it does change the nature of how it plays. More so, I think the criticism of moving Stunning Blow is critical because you haven't replaced it with anything viable. That's a huge shift in how the Berserker plays, which is fine, but I don't think this rebuild would work… yet.

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