Buff for the tricks of the trade prodigy

[Strongpoint]

Make it unlock\give mastery to dirty fighting. That will make it a little more interesting for many melee classes that have it locked, because, IMO, scoundrel tree alone is never worth prodigy point and losing the merchant...

[supermini]

Dirty fighting is a class skill tree, and unlocking it via a prodigy is a no-no... I suggested poisons ages ago.

[Strongpoint]

Dirty fighting is a class skill tree, and unlocking it via a prodigy is a no-no...

Rather confused... Isn't stealth\cunning a class talent, too?

[supermini]

Rather confused... Isn't stealth\cunning a class talent, too?

Yeah, and the prodigy gives you a mastery bonus in it, or unlocks it if locked. It won't give you stealth if you don't already have it. Not that I tested it, but I assume the description is correct.

[0player]

Yeah, and the prodigy gives you a mastery bonus in it, or unlocks it if locked.

That will make it a little more interesting for many melee classes that have it locked

[Strongpoint]

Yeah, and the prodigy gives you a mastery bonus in it, or unlocks it if locked. It won't give you stealth if you don't already have it. Not that I tested it, but I assume the description is correct.

And that exactly what I propose for dirty fighting, quite a lot of classes have it, many of them as a locked talent and some build can benefit from unlocking ( Ninja'd here)

BTW, Combat veteran tree is another possibility to do unlock or +mastery for it, and also somewhat fits thematically as all rogues have it (locked) And I bet that few players spend cat point to unlock it, even with 1.05 buff

I'd propose it unlocking\giving mastery for Stealth\Dirty fighting\Combat veteran + scoundrel but it looks as little too much

[supermini]

Oops, I misread your OP. Sorry.

Maybe unlock scoundrel and give you a choice to unlock/give mastery to either of dirty fighting/stealth/c. veteran? That way you keep overall power about the same but you broaden the appeal to more classes, like you suggested.

[SageAcrin]

Honestly, if Tricks is meant for a more generalized base of characters(it was meant to be pretty narrow originally), I'd say the suggestions are a little underpowered, if anything.

When I designed it, it was for Rogue/Shadowblade/Archmage/Anorithil(the invis heavy classes and the two Rogues). Combat Veteran and Dirty Fighting are going to buff it for Shadowblade(again) but not really change anyone else's minds.

Toss in the fact that one of the big bonuses(The Stealth+, which allowed you near-perfect Stealth unbreakability with a category point, on Rogue) is nerfed, and it probably could use a general buff overall, so long as it doesn't make Shadowblade(the best target for it right now) too much better.

My thought; Have it grant Scoundrel/boost it, as it does now, and Stealth if you have it, and give the Invis penalty drop. Additionally, add:

0.2 boost to Thuggery(if you have it) or unlock it(if you have it locked).
0.2 boost to Traps(if you have it) or unlock it(if you have it locked).
0.2 boost to Poisons(if you have it) or unlock it(if you have it locked).
Set your offhand weapon bonus to 120%, if it is lower than 120%.

This does a few things. One, it makes it better for Rogues and Marauders-now they get a free unlock for Poisons out of it, Rogues get Traps bonus, and Marauders get better Thuggery-all good for them. Two, it makes it very notably attractive for Archers-now they get a Cunning based support tree and two free unlocks, which is pretty interesting. They can't get ammo from the Merchant anyways, not yet at least, so it's not as big of a loss for them.

And three, it enables oddball off-class dualwield builds. Cursed and Temporal Warden never really get good bonuses on the offhand, for example. Doing it like this(as opposed to boosting the dualwield categories) keeps Shadowblade and the other Rogue classes from stacking up insane bonuses on their offhand, while still giving them a potential ability to skip out on the dualwield talent(so it's a bonus, just not a huge one).

It's kinda a powerful set, but most people seem so adverse to the downsides of Tricks that a lot of flashiness should be good. And in the end, I don't think it really ends up a ton stronger, just a ton more interesting/viable for non-Shadowblades.

[HousePet]

I'd still like some more generalised stuff for siding with the Assassin lord straight up.
Such as granting stealth, scoundrel and poisons locked at 1.0 mastery.
Waiting until level 30 to unlock something that could be fundamental to a fun build sucks.

[SageAcrin]

Class skills are a general no, unless there's very strong reasons for it.

I think the main reason Lichform gets a pass is because it's another class skill granting those class skills. Otherwise, DarkGod seems very against it.

...Of course, nothing says Tricks of the Trade couldn't grant a few powerful poisons and/or traps, regardless of if you have the Traps/Poisons categories. The first skill in both would still power up said poison/trap, so it would still be useful to be a trap/poison oriented character for those skills.

But, someone would have to come up with ideas for good poisons/traps and, optimally, code them. I'm a bit of a blank on that, off the top of my head. Still, it's a thought.

Then again, that might be a better idea to buff the Mystical Cunning skill, thinking on it. That would be a cool idea for it.

[PureQuestion]

Lichform as an argument for precedent really shouldn't hold up anyway; Lichform is an exceptional skill in almost every way; there's nothing quite like it anywhere else in the entire game.

[Strongpoint]

Hmmm....

What about -

a) A choice between unlocking if locked\buffing one from the list - Stealth\Dirty Fighting\Poisons\Traps\Phantasmal\Combat veteran
b) Scoundrel as now
c) Invisibility stuff as now
d) +1level of shadow cunning talent
e) set offhand bonus to 120%


a) I think giving some choice is good, giving three-four category points stuff is just wrong way to handle prodigies
d) That's a class talent, but talent is not a tree, it gives a little to shadowblade (even if it allows to get to raw level 6) but that bonus to spellpower will make the prodigy at least somewhat interesting choice for every spell-caster ( One thing that worries me: Anorithils may like it little too much. )

[morganp]

When I designed it, it was for Rogue/Shadowblade/Archmage/Anorithil(the invis heavy classes and the two Rogues).

Wait, I thought the Assassin Lord and his cronies always agroed for Celestials? Or did that change sometime? An always-invisible Anorithil would be amazing... if you could actually side with him.

[SageAcrin]

When I designed it, it was for Rogue/Shadowblade/Archmage/Anorithil(the invis heavy classes and the two Rogues).

Wait, I thought the Assassin Lord and his cronies always agroed for Celestials? Or did that change sometime? An always-invisible Anorithil would be amazing... if you could actually side with him.

If that occurs, I can't find the part in the code. I admit, I hadn't tested Anorithil or anything.

Given that IIRC DarkGod didn't want character classes to be tied to traditional morality(which is why Corruptors don't have to wander around being evil all the time), and given that no one in the west even knows much about Celestials, I don't understand why that'd be, either...

[Doctornull]

According to every guide I've seen, the Anorithil invisibility talent sucks, and I'm not sure what boost an Anorithil could get to make it not suck... other than permanent negative energy regen, which would throw off other aspects of their class balance.