Snazz up Cryo

[parcel]

For those who would wear a crown of icicles:

The higher elemental trees of archmagery and the presence of geomancers, cryomancers and so forth at Angolwen suggest a certain symmetry in the magical arts, that all pure elemental builds are possible, powerful and interesting. In practice though fire is probably the most favored, with aether a close second, probably, and the geomancers and cryomancers especially are still far at the back of the pack. It's not so good to have low damage output, a tendency toward DoT that must be dealed at close range, and to compensate for this weakness the ability to freeze things that goes obsolete as stun resist becomes commonplace among baddies. So it seems like the cryo tree could use a little love, and there are many ways to do this, but this is my suggestion.

Uttercold, like the other elemental mastery sustains, has a bonus effect in addition to the damage mod. The bonus is a bit sad though, themed around the iceblock status that you can't deal out reliably anyway in the late game. I'd replace it; if monsters are going to be resisting your elemental stuns and freezes then let uttercold come in to save the day by dealing out some extra punishment every time a monster succeeds in that saving throw or resist. A quick sketch of what this type of ability could entail:

Uttercold
blah blah blah, resist penetration, blah blah....
In addition, crystals of cold and uneven temperatures at the small scale will still hinder your foes, even as they resist the large scale freeze. When your ice and water spells attempt to freeze or pin but fail due to the resistance or saves of your target, they suffer an alternative status effect:
frostbite: bleeds X% of current hp over K turns
metabolic slumber: reduces global speed by Y% over J turns
In addition, your 'freeze' spell freezes anything: a successful resist or save from your foe instead reduces the iceblock duration substantially.

[SageAcrin]

Iceblock duration and durability reduction, not just duration, I'd say. I'd go as far to say that failed Freezes should have a 75% reduction to both(Or maybe a (TL*4)-100% reduction, cap at 70%.).

The main downside to this is that Shivgoroth Form is focused a bit around using cold and ice spells on ones self. Conceivably it could actually have a hard immunity to freeze effects, though.

Within that, the idea's pretty nice. I don't know what the values should be set to(Off the top of my head, see above for the freezing, 2% HP loss per turn with a rank based reduction for (TL+2) turns, and (TL*3) cap at 20% slow for three turns seem like good first attempt values), but I'm pretty sure the whole thing could be reasonably balanced against the other categories. Neat idea.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Definitely like the general idea, though perhaps adjust to cold affecting muscles in a more accuracy related way, not just slow. Stiff frostbitten muscles don't function as well. (Go aside and shovel snow with your hands for a while, then go inside and try to do some activity requiring finite dexterity, see how well that goes.) Accuracy penalties are a good way to go to reflect this. (Though whether this should be in addition to the global slow, is another story.)

[parcel]

Yes, I could see other status effects on the list as well, since many things are plausible when talking about 'magical' or 'deep' cold which forms part of the foundation of the living cosmos. The two I listed were for general utility and fairly decent plausibility no matter the creature. An accuracy penalty seems interesting, given the tendency to work at close range with cryo; it would be interesting if a natural cryo build were synergistic with blur sight. However if this is a possible effect then we should perhaps phrase it in a way that doesn't explicitly refer to muscles, since stone golems and skeletons and banshees don't have them.

If each effect is applied separately, one at a time for each freezing attack, then it's worth considering the way in which relatively weak or special-purpose effects can dilute the power of that list. For instance, lower regen or healmod may make sense too as a cold-aligned effect, but that isn't always what you need.

[parcel]

Iceblock duration and durability reduction, not just duration, I'd say. I'd go as far to say that failed Freezes should have a 75% reduction to both(Or maybe a (TL*4)-100% reduction, cap at 70%.).

The main downside to this is that Shivgoroth Form is focused a bit around using cold and ice spells on ones self. Conceivably it could actually have a hard immunity to freeze effects, though.

Within that, the idea's pretty nice. I don't know what the values should be set to(Off the top of my head, see above for the freezing, 2% HP loss per turn with a rank based reduction for (TL+2) turns, and (TL*3) cap at 20% slow for three turns seem like good first attempt values), but I'm pretty sure the whole thing could be reasonably balanced against the other categories. Neat idea.

I'm probably not expert enough to decide how much durability should be reduced, if it all, but you are in the ballpark for what I figured to be a good duration reduction: my initial thought was that about 80% would be right.

Yes, I can agree with the idea that shivgoroth should be hard-coded as immune to iceblock; shivgoroths ARE iceblocks, basically: hulking elemental forms that are nonetheless surprisingly graceful, given their general lack of friction. Another possibility is to make it impossible to deliver iceblock status to yourself through cold spells in general, or to have this type of self-protection as a special case in spell shaping. On the other hand it might be neat if shivgoroths had a flag to explicitly welcome iceblock attacks, at least if they come from friendly fire: that is, the shivgoroth doesn't try to resist or save against the malus, so it always works.

[darkgod]

Some nice ideas; just a note though, I dunno where this meme of stun immunity being omnipresent comes from, but it's not true, not at all, not even for bosses

[jinsediaoying]

Some nice ideas; just a note though, I dunno where this meme of stun immunity being omnipresent comes from, but it's not true, not at all, not even for bosses

I think it because part of the most dangerous enemy are stun immune, and they are much more noticable then the normal monsters.
For example:
1. big dragons
2. some horror, especially Worm that Walks, the melee killer
3. high level Skeletons rares, thay are semi-immune debuffs (due to their high level Elastic Skeleton)
4. Bulwarks and Berserkers, there are alot of them, even around 4 bosses.
5. Shadows, I hate them...

So the complain of the immunity is basicly a "my best weapon turns into crap while I face the most lethal opponents" issue.

Lightning trees also have the same issue.
Fear tree have a even worse problem, since all undeads immunes fear, and thats almost half of the top killer list...

[Atarlost]

Ideally every elemental build should be a viable build all game. It makes more sense for NPCs from a historical perspective (what do apprentice orc cryomancers do to defend themseles?) and it makes theme builds more doable.

Mana/Aether is not viable below level 4. Swapping Arcane Power and Manathrust would fix this, but you don't see manamancers running around so it may not really be an element, though if it's not it probably shouldn't have gotten a second tree.

Fire/Wildfire is solid from start to finish.

Air/Storm is a bit weaker, but still works.

Water/Ice technically has a first tier attack, but it isn't actually good for much and the second tier is also not a very good attack because of its long cooldown. The tier one talent in the second tree isn't very useful either. The cooldown is nice, but the projectile speed is terrible and unlike other low projectile speed area attacks you miss if an opponent moves from one tile in AoE to another. I think I'd move Freeze to where Ice Shards is, Glacial Vapour to where Freeze is, and bring back the old water beam from T2.

Earth/Stone is not viable below level 4 for lack of an offensive spell. Since Stone Skin just sucks perhaps a simple low cooldown bolt in its place? No other spell tree actually has a low cooldown single bolt that doesn't become a beam with a bit of investment. Alternately possibly swap Stone Skin with Earthen Missiles and rebalance both as appropriate. That would also improve the balance between trees on an arcane blade where Stone is currently a harder start but far superior late game choice.

{edit}
I just picked up an attempt at a lightning/cold themed archmage I'd started a while ago.

Ice Shards doesn't seem to be quite as bad as I'd remembered since the individual shards have AoE, though the way it's targeted its single target damage scales with the number of foes and the shots hit walls a lot. It looks like as of 1.04 this doesn't have the aim line fix that the multi-arrow talents got. I'm also not sure the explosions trigger when it hits empty floor tiles. That it fires a rad 1 ball per opponent in a rad 1 area, though, makes it scale very badly. Major opponents are usually solo and it scales with the square of the number of targets. If it's supposed to work like I now suspect it is and is made to use favorable lines of effect like the multi-arrow talents and the shards properly explode when their paths terminate on empty floor it should probably fire a fixed number of projectiles like double-shot and either fire excess shards beyond the number of targets at empty squares or do more damage. I am now inclined to suggest removing Freeze and fixing Ice Shards rather than removing Ice Shards and shifting Freeze into its place.

On the other hand I'm noticing some conflict between Tidal Wave and Ice Storm. Tidal wave pushes opponents away and Ice Storm requires them to be nearby. Shivgoroth Form also does other things, but it's still a strike against cryomancy that they're in conflict.

[parcel]

Ideally every elemental build should be a viable build all game. It makes more sense for NPCs from a historical perspective (what do apprentice orc cryomancers do to defend themseles?) and it makes theme builds more doable.

I'm a little bit less insistent on this for lore consistency. The typical path of mage types is to be sheltered and trained in a relatively safe, controlled environment. Player Character archmages are just a little bit more restless (and talented, probably) than the typical student in the Age of Ascendancy. Besides, things are currently set up so that on standard difficulty at least, even a dung-mancer could survive the early levels. Stone and ice may be more subtle to play well early on for new players, but that is an unevenness that I would accept.

...but you don't see manamancers running around so it may not really be an element...

I'd add the aethermages in at Angolwen, perhaps, though part of the issue is that all mages partake of aether to some degree. If I were making up lore on the spot I would probably class the Aether as an element of the cosmos, like Sun and Moon. Sun is refulgent light, moon is refulgent darkness, aether is refulgent with something like creative intent, or the breath of life, and emanates out into the four elements that condense to form a flourishing planet within the generally sterile cosmos. Time and space are meta-elements, and the void within all structures lie. Blight is an elemental aspect glimpsed most clearly in Maj'Eyal through the door to the Fearscape, but the truly deep aspect of blight is perhaps the deepest; the raw horror/chaos from which the pandimensional cosmos comes and into which it goes; there's not much difference between beginning and end, creation and destruction when you are talking about the ground of reality hierarchically Unbound by space and time. This sort of hierarchy would give a pretty numerology to the universe of the game, with the materially manifest Elemental Four coming from the cosmic Elemental Three, which rest inside the Two, which thrive and perish with only the support of the One that is never ever fully seen. To truly see the deepest nature of the One would be the dissolution of reality, the loss of the autonomous soul, the possession of ultimate power to control -- all these things, because the basic nature of primordial chaos defeats conceptual understanding and mentality qua mentality.

Water/Ice technically has a first tier attack, but it isn't actually good for much and the second tier is also not a very good attack because of its long cooldown. The tier one talent in the second tree isn't very useful either. The cooldown is nice, but the projectile speed is terrible and unlike other low projectile speed area attacks you miss if an opponent moves from one tile in AoE to another. I think I'd move Freeze to where Ice Shards is, Glacial Vapour to where Freeze is, and bring back the old water beam from T2.

I've generally thought that glacial vapor should get an extra effect, or an extra effect when leveled. For instance it might add an extra DoT effect to things that get caught in the cloud, because of sleet; or perhaps more interestingly the behavior of the vapor could become increasingly coherent at higher tlvl, giving you a multiplier on damage the fewer things there are in the cloud. But we should bear in mind too that the vapor is fairly useful to shivgoroth form, conceptually, so it might just need a damage buff.

Earth/Stone is not viable below level 4 for lack of an offensive spell...

I agree with you here, especially with the relative nonutility of the stone skin sustain on archmages at present. However the full discussion of how to repair this other neglected Elemental school should be in a separate thread, because thats a brainstorming topic that also deserves a certain level of exclusive focus.

On the other hand I'm noticing some conflict between Tidal Wave and Ice Storm. Tidal wave pushes opponents away and Ice Storm requires them to be nearby.

I thought part of the theme with Stone and Ice, and Ice especially, is that they are close-ranged skills. So rather than having long-range multihits and being squishy at melee range these schools are designed to cope robustly with melee crowds coming into range. Because they are melee-oriented enemies, you can assume that they are walking toward you, so tidal wave merely tends to keep this sort of crowd at constant range. If you can pin or iceblock it, then of course it can't be pushed away at all and just squats there to keep receiving the attack.

To deal with single monsters the Freeze spell should really be your main nuke-and-setup-a-combo spell by design; for crowds with several ranged attackers, like you see in the gates of the prides, the light spell works pretty well, but you might also be able to work in some tactics based around iceblocking yourself in shivgoroth form that would work nicely if there were appropriate rules for a beneficial aspect to iceblock on ice elementals. You have shields, of course, and shivgoroth healing, so cryomancers still seem to have a fairly reasonable toolkit for dealing with crowds attacking at long range, compared to encounters with a single, stronger caster.

[jinsediaoying]

For stone/earth, give Stone Skin some armor hardiness and it is good to go.

[HousePet]

Perhaps a simpler solution would be to add freeze resistance penetration to Uttercold and daze resistance penetration to Tempest?

A more complex solution, but one that feels nicer over the whole board, would be to have cold resistance penetration work as freeze resistance penetration, lightning penetration as daze penetration, blight penetration as disease penetration, nature for poison, etc.
Its a bit more work overall, but then you don't need to address similar issues each time they arise.

[Atarlost]

For stone/earth, give Stone Skin some armor hardiness and it is good to go.

That doesn't really help at all since to be viable as a mage the first tier talent in the base tree needs to be an attack talent. Armor doesn't really help when all you can do offensively is hit people with a stick.

The whole premise here is that all the all the elemental schools should be playable and some of them aren't.

Mana and Earth have non-attack talents at tier 1. Earth has no basic spammable attack until Earthen Body can reduce cooldowns. Water has no spammable attack until Ice Shards in the advanced tree.

You can run pure fire and pure lightning and get by (if you skip the Derth quest on a tempest build). You can run pure mana past level 4 with respec. You cannot run pure water or pure earth even starting at level 4 with respec. The cooldowns on Freeze and Pulverizing Augur are too long for your only offensive talent.

[Sradac]

Not sure what your guys problem is, i've made great things happen with pure water from level 1 with arcane power to up my power. Glacial Vapors does just fine damage just dont stand in one place and let things murder you. Maximize its damage, cast it with the enemies on the outside edge of the effect, as they move in closer they will kill themselves. It has some of the highest damage potential of any spell in the game. Low cost, respectable size, good duration.

Just because a spell dosent do huge instant damage dosent mean it isnt good. Ever wonder why Necromancers in Everquest or Warlocks in WoW were able to outdamage everyone else? Low cost damage over time effects. Just have to know how to use them.

[parcel]

Not sure what your guys problem is, i've made great things happen with pure water from level 1 with arcane power to up my power. Glacial Vapors does just fine damage just dont stand in one place and let things murder you. Maximize its damage, cast it with the enemies on the outside edge of the effect, as they move in closer they will kill themselves. It has some of the highest damage potential of any spell in the game. Low cost, respectable size, good duration.

Just because a spell dosent do huge instant damage dosent mean it isnt good. Ever wonder why Necromancers in Everquest or Warlocks in WoW were able to outdamage everyone else? Low cost damage over time effects. Just have to know how to use them.

Glacial vapor does damage, but every time I check how that damage rolls out it is worse than the damage of a beam under reasonable assumptions about how long a thing is going to stay in the cloud. A quick roll with the talent point planner has vapor doing 27 damage or so per turn, so you need about 5 turns to hit the average damage of a lightning bolt and more to hit what a fire beam will do over 3 turns -- and in the latter case that's not counting the extra DoT that you'd get from burning wake. It's much a much bigger damage output to cast a beam twice, and the marginal cost is not so great. Yes, cold spells save significantly on mana, but there are mana savings involved in rapidly dispatching an enemy, as well, since you rely on mana to shake off damage through aegis and if you go for displacement shield you need high cost spells, not low. Ice is pretty strong against standard melee but if the field is relatively open and your foes blink around then it's more difficult. If you have to blink in range to do damage to casters through any spell other than AV and light, you will have a relatively rough time of it. Celia is not too easy for standard wildfire archmages but it's going to be harder for a 'melee' fighter like ice, who have to spend more time getting in range and soak up a lot more damage. The usual. DoT builds either give you a significant premium on damage over medium timescales -- remember that only a few spells are needed for the typical foe -- or they allow you to debuff the enemy in a significant way, in order to compensate for your increased exposure to damage associated with longer enemy lifespans. Diseases in Reavers and Corrupters are currently a much better base for DoT builds, IMHO, but even there notice how much more the standard builds emphasize high burst damage. There is a huge premium to popping dangerous enemies very soon after you see them, in the TOME that I know.

[Atarlost]

Also note there's only one water spell in the water school. Something based on the old T2 Geyser would make a more playable build and fit the tree name better.