Runic Mastery tree (analogue to Fungus)

[Doctornull]

Over in the fungus thread, it's been mentioned that Anti-Magic may be a bit too strong for non-spellcasters, and that's mostly because going Arcane doesn't give you enough benefits in contrast to the Antimagic and Fungus trees.

The idea behind this tree is to make Runes more attractive, to the point that it would even be fun and valid (if unusual) for a Wyrmic to go pro-magic.

This tree would be gifted by Angolwen after you defeat Urkis.


Runic Mastery
Recent changes highlighted in green, design notes in small blue.

Runic Recall
Level 10+ (no stat requirement)
Activated, Instant, Cooldown 50 (minus 7 x talent level, minimum 15)
Lowers the cooldown of all Runes by 1, removes one random Rune from cooldown, and reduces Charm cooldown by (talent level x 20%) but never below 1.
Design notes: at one dot, this gives you a way out of stunlock. At 5 dots, this allows you to cut loose with your defense/offense Runes more often, and changes the Charm economy to the point where you might actually want to rely on 3 of them rather than just 1.

Runic Empowerment
Level 14+ (no stat requirement)
Passive
Every Rune gives you constant (talent level * 0.10) mana regeneration, in addition to its usual function.
- Level 1: When you use a Shield rune, it has a 40% chance to remove a magical negative condition. When you use a Heat Beam or Frozen Spear rune, it has a 40% chance to remove a second condition of the appropriate type. When you use a Vision rune, it cures the blindness condition.
- Level 2: Your Vision runes provide constant passive telepathy (range 4) for the creature type they detect. The defensive feature of your Lightning runes gain a 50% chance to last an extra round.
- Level 3: The chance for the level 1 benefit increases to 100% (runes always remove one extra condition). The telepathy for your Vision runes extends to range 6.
- Level 4: The defensive feature when you use a Lightning rune has a 75% chance to last for an extra round. The telepathy for your Vision runes extends to range 8.
- Level 5: Your Shield runes now remove two magical conditions when used. Your Heat Beam and Frozen Spear runes now remove three conditions. The defensive benefit of your Lightning runes always lasts for an extra round. When you inscribe a Vision rune onto your body, you gain passive telepathy range 10 for the indicated creature type.
Design notes: at one dot, this gives an unreliable defensive boost. At 5 dots, the boost is significant and reliable. The goal here is to make you value NOT using Runes until you have a condition to remove.

Runic Elements
Level 18+ (no stat requirement)
Passive
Your Acid Wave, Heat Beam, Frozen Spear and Lightning runes gain damage penetration (10% x talent level) for their damage type. While you have an Acid Wave, Heat Beam, Frozen Spear or Lightning rune in cooldown, you gain (5% x talent level) resistance to that damage type. If you have the Elemental Harmony talent sustained, you gain the benefit of the Rune's damage type as though you had taken damage of that type.
Design notes: the goal here is to encourage you to value using your Runes early, in direct contrast to the previous talent's benefit. It's also intended to better reward those who DON'T rely on shields for everything: the damage resistance is useless if you've got a powerful shield up. Also, the Elemental Harmony perk is only good for the living.

Runic Harmony
Level 22+ (no stat requirement)
Passive
When you use a Rune, reduce the cooldown of a random Infusion by (talent level / 2), and gain (3 x talent level) Equilibrium.
Level 2: Your shield runes last +1 extra round.
Level 3: When you teleport, remove one negative condition of any type.
Level 4: Your shield runes last +2 extra rounds.
Level 5: You can use Runes even when silenced.
Design notes: the 1-dot benefit is great for people who mix Runes and Infusions, while the 5-dot benefit rewards those who rely on Runes to escape. Undead may want to 5/5 this talent, but getting there is going to be expensive, and they won't benefit as much as the living would from the investment.




I don't imagine that this would be a tree that most character want to 20/20, but doing so should be viable for many character types, and might even be fun in play.

Let me know what you think!

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Last passive doesn't make much sense. Positive/negative, psionic, etc, are all non-magical seperate sources of energy. (Divine, internal, etc.) and are not appropriate for conversion. Doesn't fit thematically, and would overpower certain characters.

The rest looks good, and makes a fair bit of sense.

[Doctornull]

Last passive doesn't make much sense. Positive/negative, psionic, etc, are all non-magical seperate sources of energy. (Divine, internal, etc.) and are not appropriate for conversion. Doesn't fit thematically, and would overpower certain characters.

Thanks for the feedback!

The idea is that you've mastered conversion of energy to the point that you can turn Mana into other forms of energy. (Positive / negative both ARE magical, as the Manaclash talent affects them explicitly.)

Which characters would be overpowered?

The idea is to allow Pro-Arcane characters to have some resource regeneration for the talents they may have picked up. Maybe just overflow into Paradox and Equilibrium, then Stamina if both of those are "full"?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I would argue for positive/negative being divine in nature. (Don't give me the baloney about 'gods are dead'. There are plenty of hints about gods being alive.) The sun paladins specifically say they draw there powers from the worship of the sun. Furthermore, If they could just use manasurge to fill their meters up, they wouldn't need a number of their talents that make them balanced the way they are now. You'd throw twilight out the window almost, and potentially overpower things that consume your resources over time, like corona/hymn of moonlight.

Manaclash affects them because they didn't need to be immune to it for balance reasons. And divine magic, might still be magic, but it isn't an internal reservoir of mana.

As for psionic/equilibrum/paradox/hate/vim, they are distinct power sources as well. I might be able to see vim, but that would overpower vim based characters, rather extensively. Similar for hate.

Psionic is an internal, nonmagical force. I MIGHT be able to understand some sort of conversion here, maybe, but the fact that it's the power of the mind and will, rather then some force of magic, kinda makes me iffy on it.

Restoring EQ off manasurge? Stacked with fungus on a wyrmic, or stacked with any other source of EQ regen like meditation might create some balance issues. Though again, I MIGHT be able to see this logically, since the game flat-out states that magic is a part of nature. (See "What Is Magic?" in Angolwen) Further proof of this exists in stone warden.

As for other resources, I dunno. Hate has the same internal issues as psionic does.

Paradox would be weird. Often, you want that higher, often lower. Which direction is this moving it in? More, or less? I could see it being problematic for a few reasons.

Vim would be obscenely overpowered if you could convert mana into it. The limited quantity of the resource creates issues as is, requiring some minor caution in extended fights.

Stamina could probably be acceptable.

Thoughts? Would welcome input from the creators on how 'resource conversion' could fit into the lore. (Except on celestial, since those powers are clearly divine, and nothing can speak otherwise, as that's already lore in game. No developer can say they are not, and be right.)

(Yes, I recognize you didn't specify all of these, but I addressed them all along the way, in case they came up later.)

[darkgod]

I like some of those ideas and I agree the last talent is the worst :/

And Crim, no, arcane is not part of nature and celestial magic is certainly not divine. We have never seen divine forces yet. Because the gods are dead/fleeing. Other worlds may have gods though, as gods are local phenomenons (local to a planet)

[Un67]

^ But if Amakthel created the sun, and Celestials draw power from the sun, doesn't that mean that they are indirectly using divine power?

[darkgod]

You know, myths and legends in Eyal are the same as in the real world: never trust them fully
You'll note that the many myths of creations you can find in the game can contradict one another

[Doctornull]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
Sounds like the last one needs some alterations.
How about...


Runic Harmony
Level 22+ (no stat requirement)
Passive
For every Rune in cooldown, you gain a +(2 x talent level) bonus to Mind, Physical and Spell Power.
Level 2: Your shield runes last +1 extra round.
Level 3: When you teleport, remove one negative condition of any type.
Level 4: Your shield runes last +2 extra rounds.
Level 5: You can use Runes even when silenced.


Instead of *Power, runes in cooldown could boost saving throws, defense, accuracy or the like. My thinking here is to boost something which you'd want EARLY in a battle, so you're conflicted with the choice of whether to save your Runes to get rid of conditions or to use them early for the power boost. Hard decisions = good games.

[SageAcrin]

For an Arcane tree for an alternate to Fungus, there's a lot of things to consider, for requirements.

A: It needs to be a weaker tree. Fungus and AM are good but they have a cost-no runes, no Arcane equipment.

B: Non-direct power comparison. This works much better than just making a shielding booster vs a regen booster. It's not required, but if you make it a direct comparison, players will easily judge power between the two and make a fast decision-probably against AM, in general, since AM has disadvantages.

C: It needs to not massively raise the power of those that couldn't go AM(Undead, mages). So it needs some kind of disproportionate bonus to physical or mind playstyles-and, again, to not be too powerful. Mind's probably a lost cause; Most of AM runs off Mind. But it'd be nice if it could be pulled off without massively buffing Mind classes.

This actually succeeds in a few respects-it's a weaker tree than Fungus and it's semi-indirect.

But it strengthens the hell out of undead, and strengthens Archmages heavily. And the elemental strengthening from Runes still tends more towards mages than physical fighters. And the one skill that really disproportionately helps non-mages(the last) is, as has been mentioned, questionable for theme.

(Also it's a lot of coding work, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad.)

The idea's interesting, but ultimately anything that focuses heavily on Runes will boost the heck out of Undead. Ghouls are fine with this, they're not all that strong anyways. But Skeletons, not so much-this removes the majority of a Skeleton's downsides, leaving only the EXP issue. I suspect they'll end up running away with the game, with this set of skills, unless a class requires tons of Generic to function.

5ing Runic Empowerment and Harmony gives them reliable status curing, even at earlier levels, increases the power of their main defenses, and gives them a bunch of nice little bonuses. It's a pretty big deal there.

And I just can't imagine a lot of fighters (Undead aside, obviously.) thinking this is a major benefit to them. It's not useless, but its advantages all definitely have a mage tilt.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I like some of those ideas and I agree the last talent is the worst :/

And Crim, no, arcane is not part of nature and celestial magic is certainly not divine. We have never seen divine forces yet. Because the gods are dead/fleeing. Other worlds may have gods though, as gods are local phenomenons (local to a planet)

Your own lore states that they draw there power from worship. Of the sun/moon, not of gods, but worship implies divine, and one of the creation myths speaks of the sun/moon as gods. Now, while creation myths are just that... Myths... The fact that they draw there abilities from a different source and method of power, implies that it isn't magic. Or at least, isn't standard magic. It's akin to a Cleric and a Wizard in D&D both creating the same effect, through 2 methods. Different approaches (arcane and clerical) to the same result (Magic).

Granted, this is how I'm viewing the lore to which you have presented us. Perhaps we need some more lore from different points of view.

As for magic being a part of nature, the parchment in question specifically states that. And while, again, like the myths, it could be interpreted in a different way, I choose to believe the mages, especially with the advent of stone wardens, who function off a harmonious interaction of both arcane and natural forces. (Again, this is an interpretation. Perhaps we need more lore to provide a clearer point of view.)

Now, one definitely gets to argue that BLIGHT isn't part of nature, and the creation of antimagic to fight it would certainly be a rejection of an outside force by nature.

Anyway, since the conversion idea has been nixed, it doesn't really matter now. And this discussion is roaming far afield.

[darkgod]

One can worship other thing than gods..
And no the lore says that they both manipulate the same things, this doesnt mean all things that manipulate them are magic.
Gods, if they come in on an other world, if anything will be closer to nature than arcane. Because they are inherently creatures of the planet, tied and bound to it.

[Planetus]

I love this idea, and I also think Sage has some good comments to consider. I'd also like to add these:

1.) Add a stat requirement. Fungus needs willpower, which makes it less tempting for classes that don't pump willpower. Adding a stat would not only 'weaken' the tree altogether, but also focus it more. Making the stat Magic may seem natural, but biases this even more toward mage-types than it already would be. I'd suggest a 'everyone needs some' stat like Con for this. Since the runes are inscribed on the body, that's also a reasonable option. If the requirements aren't too high, this won't be too bad for glass cannon types.

2.) Buffing shielding runes a whole lot may seen natural and tempting, but it can easily OP this tree. A shielding rule that lasts 7 turns (5 natural +2 from this) can make permashields fairly easy to get, something which was previously only possible with Aegis+Light+2 shielding runes of low cooldown. I'd rather see the runes that are less commonly used buffed, like vision and the attack runes, though phase door/teleport removing status effects is a good idea.

3.) Maybe make this cause nature powered items to have a magic disrupting effect? They'd still be equippable, like magic disrupting gear, but add that chance. I was going to suggest making magic disrupting gear unequippable, but between the lack of uniques that do so and the fact that most people using a lot of runes won't equip them anyway, that may be a weak option.

4.) Somewhere give Firebeam runes a 50% conversion to Arcane damage. Similarly, give Lightning runes some % life draining. Maybe give Ice Lance runes the ability to either dispel positive effects on the target or to put some talents in cooldown? Or maybe give it some damage shield penetration?

5.) If you give any boosts to shielding runes, I'd say only make it a passive boost to HP/stamina regen.

6.) For Runic Harmony, I'd limit it to only officially magical sources: mana, positive, negative, paradox, vim, souls. I agree to banning vim/souls, or maybe allow vim at a very low level (1/turn), and negative should definitely be low. Paradox is also iffy as the mage may WANT high/low paradox. I could also see hate charging as the hater realizes the uselessness of this waste.

As for balancing against AM, while AM has some high costs to that path, it also grants access to several otherwise inaccessible trees. Mindstar Mastery may be bought without going AM, but you still need to at least access Zigur. The titular AM tree and the Fungus tree can only be gotten this way (outside of classes that start with them), and it gives you access to other generic trees you may not already have through escorts.

[HousePet]

This would heavily tip the balance on rune power towards unstable.
Because anyone with this category would have super powered runes, we would end up with this being required to have sensible use from runes.
Some interesting ideas, but I don't think it would work well in the long term.

[b0rsuk]

Last passive doesn't make much sense.

I don't think it's supposed to make sense - rather, it's meant to be a mirror equivalent of Fungus. Which is the reason the idea doesn't excite me - make runes stronger at the cost of their identity. And the "Grand Arrival/Blighted Summoning" style talent rubs me the wrong way - each rune should be useful and desirable in its basic form. If this gets implemented, people will be able to defend bad design by saying things like: "Of course Vision runes suck! You're supposed to take talent_name to get any use out of them!". Band-aid.

But I'll bring an idea with me:

Teleport Mastery (passive)
Gives limited control over all common forms of teleportation - Phase Door, Teleport, possibly even Psychoport and Dreamwalk. The idea is inspired by the Wormhole talent.

When you use Wormhole, it you select an adjacent square, and that square is temporarily a 2-way teleport to another Wormhole. You can look around to see where the Wormhole leads:

Code: Select all

.o.....
.@.....
.......
.......
.......
.......
....o..

Teleport Mastery would use a very similar interface, except the "wormholes" adjacent to you would be purely cosmetic - they would be 1-way, player-only and displayed even over monsters or obstacles. Each "wormhole" would be color-coded, so you'd look around, see a destination you like, see it's say, red and then press the arrow which will "move" you into the red portal.

Code: Select all

....o..........
...*@x.........
....0..........
.............x.
......0........
..*............
.......o.......

Talent level 1: Only 1 portal generated. You can see the destination and you may cancel the teleport/phase door. Doing so will not use a turn, but will put teleport on cooldown. So if teleport would put you 2 squares away, you have a chance to do something else instead.
Talent level 2: like above, but 2 portals are generated for teleport and you can choose between them.
Talent level 3: three portals are generated, so you choose between 3 destinations.
Talent level 4: four portals generated.
Talent level 5: this space for rent

[Hachem_Muche]

Teleport mastery makes a lot of sense thematically for an Angolwen-unlocked tree, though it doesn't necessarily have that much synergy with runes in general.

I think the worm-hole approach is rather redundant with the way phase door, teleport, and dream walk already work, however. That is they already get better controlled with talent levels.

Instead I'd make the last talent enhance those talents.

1. Add the talent level of this talent to the teleport talents to determine their effects, That is, this talent would make those spells (and applicable runes) more accurate and able to target subject and destination as applicable, and enhance their range. (The new scaling changes going in would make this work pretty well.)

2. Lower the cooldowns and fizzle chance by a certain percentage with level. (Probably 25% at talent level 5 and never more than 50%)

3. Provide some spellpower for purposes of overcoming the continuum destabilization buff (a la Spacetime Mastery) so that teleport and phase door gain more offensive utility.