The "Good Guy" prodigy

[Omega Blue]

In a few places along the way, you are faced with choices...

1. Save the merchant, or side with the assassin lord
2. Save the girl, or let her die
3. Help the dragon or help the naga
4. Help the grand corruptor or kill him (only if you are a spellcaster)

Now, for the first three, if you choose to go with the "bad" side, you can get a prodigy out of it, but being a good guy gets you nothin. So I am proposing a "Good Guy" prodigy, which is only available for doing good deeds for these situations. I am not sure what it is now, but perhaps something like +20% to resist all (including the cap), or maybe a form of pure light...

[Canderel]

+20% resist all is OP... Even +10% is really, really strong. But I like the concept of offering a prodigy to those who did everything good.

[Nimmy]

You forget the ring of blood choice.

Is saving the girl really to do something good ? I usually always try to save her, but sometimes I fail because it's not that easy to succeed with some race/class. So I do something good (try to save the girl), it's just that I usually fail at it.

Anyway, if this idea were to be implemented, I'd like a neutral prodigy for people who decide to side with the assassin lord then decice to kill him, side with the slaver then decide to kill him, sides with the grand corruptor then ... It think you see the pattern. (I would say this correspond to chaotic neutral neutral in AD&D terminology, but I have never played AD&D so I might be mistaken)

EDIT: this prodigy would require 50 Cun of course.

[Planetus]

I definitely think there's a need for at least a collective counter-prodigy. And, for the record, there's a prodigy connected with siding with the Grand Corruptor, too. I agree that +20% resist all would be OP, especially if it included caps. I would think we could work some significant resistance boosts, though, especially since at least 3 of the 4 would be siding against magical/pseudomagical forces. Saving Melinda means siding against magical cultists, helping the dragon means siding against a magical race altered by Sher'Tul forces, and then of course there's the grand corruptor. The assassin lord isn't magically inclined, but maybe some poison resistance would be good. Maybe +10-20% resistance to lightning, arcane, blight, acid, ice, fire, poison and disease resistance. I think that should cover all the elements actually thrown at you through those quests (except for physical). That still leaves a number of elements untouched and since it's not resist all, it's still subject to resistance dropping.

Nimmy, you want a backstabber prodigy? I like. Maybe +global critical chance? Maybe couple it with nothing is party-friendly any more (so attacks that normally wouldn't damage summoned creatures/allies now do)?

[tylor]

Reward for saving merchant is access to custom-made randarts, which is big. For naga there is a very good lite. Melinda reward is quite weak, I think, considering this is one of the toughest quests in game. Just one artifact, that is not even checking for AM. And is there any reward fore Celia?

[shwqa]

I like it, but the naga and dragon thing is a bit of grey area. They are both huge jerks. I would go with Freeing Slaver, Helping Lumberjacks, Free Merchant, and Save the Girl/Killing the Demon (both are good). I would also go with 50 con, because one of the defintion of constitution is "a person's disposition of mind; temperament". For the prodigy I would go +10% Light resist damage and cap, + 10% Blight resist and cap, +10% Darkness resist and cap, Disease immunity, poison immunity, and +10 all saves

[Mewtarthio]

I like it, but the naga and dragon thing is a bit of grey area. They are both huge jerks. I would go with Freeing Slaver, Helping Lumberjacks, Free Merchant, and Save the Girl/Killing the Demon (both are good). I would also go with 50 con, because one of the defintion of constitution is "a person's disposition of mind; temperament". For the prodigy I would go +10% Light resist damage and cap, + 10% Blight resist and cap, +10% Darkness resist and cap, Disease immunity, poison immunity, and +10 all saves

"Constitution" in ToME (as in DnD) refers strictly to physical constitution--Willpower is the mental equivalent. I'd consider light bonuses and darkness/blight resistances to be a little odd, seeing as the world of Maj'Eyal doesn't really support black-and-white morality. The prodigy should instead be named "Altruist" and be focused solely on making sacrifices or taking risks to help the weak (so, killing the Blood Master without playing his game or diving into the Dark Crypt to either rescue Melinda or avenge her death should count towards the prodigy, while factional choices like Slasul vs Ukllmswwik or Rhaloren vs Zigur should not).

The prodigy should not be holy-themed, as there are no benevolent higher powers in Eyal (including impersonal ones like "The Power of Love"). Psionics might make a decent justification for a benefit here. For example:

Altruist
Willpower 50
Help the helpless*

You have dedicated yourself to helping those less fortunate. Your idealism is so strong that you can draw upon it as a psionic defense. Your mental save is permanently increased by 15, and you learn the Psionics/Dream Forge generic talent category at 1.0 mastery (or gain +0.2 mastery if you already know the category).

*Would be a hidden variable like "Be close to the draconic world." +1 for killing the Blood Master without ever entering his game, +1 for saving the merchant, +1 for rescuing Melinda or killing Kryl'Feijan

[PureQuestion]

The reason these prodigies were added was because the bad guy options were never a compelling option.

[Planetus]

The Ring of Blood has always had a good bonus to those that choose to participate, while the bonus to those that choose not to is just some random loot (not even an artifact, I think). The bonus for helping the lumberjack village is minor if you've already unlocked the cursed class, though there's absolutely nothing for refusing it. The merchant has always been better to save than sacrifice if you've already got the poison tree achievement. Melinda is kind of like the lumberjacks, except that now you get a unique for saving her. Ziguranth vs Rhaloren was always a wash once you got the corruptor unlock, but now the Rhaloren also have a con-based prodigy. For Slasul vs Ukllmswwik, the pearl is loot from killing Slasul, which I think you can go back and do after killing Ukllmswwik if you want. That's probably why the prodigy requires that Slasul still be alive to get the other part of the reward.

All in all, I think that leaves freeing the slaves, killing the Grand Corruptor, and siding with Ukllmswwik. I don't think siding with the 'good' side has balanced rewards to siding with the 'bad guys'. And anyway, I'd love to see a new prodigy for it.

[Mewtarthio]

Letting Melinda get sacrificed gives you Kryl-Feijan's boss drops. You're not guaranteed an artifact in there, but you're probably more likely to find something you can actually use. Either way, the quest does not by any stretch of the imagination give you a reward that makes up for its difficulty.

[shwqa]

I still say siding with the dragon isn't "good". He just want the place for his own selfish reasons. I thought the point of that quest is there was no right answer (other than kill both for your own selfish gain)

Most games I skip melinda because it can be an easy way to die, unless you got some mad blight resist. Just going down there and stopping the cultist at your own personal risk is a pretty good thing to do.

[nate]

Only two of these things seem like no-brainer, have-to decisions: you have to side with the merchant lord. his randarts are just too good. (Only need to not side with him once for the unlock.) That's in strong favor of the good guys. And you have to save the Yeek. The benefit from the Yeek is huge. Both of those are in favor of the good guys.

The other ones, they're kinda ho-hum. None of the rewards are significant enough that they're going to mean the difference between you dying and surviving-- okay, maybe one game in 1000, or 10000.

I'm not against the idea of a good guy prodigy (although I think you could get a little more flavorful than that-- Mewtarthio's Altruist is a great start), but it's not some kind of important balance decision. If being a good guy was the effective way to gain power, then there wouldn't be any bad guys. Anybody that wants to be good, but only if they don't have to sacrifice anything, isn't a good guy at all.

[shwqa]

Corrupted shell can only get gotten if you side with the corrupter. That gives huge bonus to hp, defense, and saves.

[Velorien]

I think there are multiple angles to consider here, all of which suggest that a Good Guy prodigy is not the solution to the problem OP highlights.

First, TOME is by design a morally relativistic setting. It is built of shades of grey, and if obviously good versus obviously evil choices are available, these are at best exceptions and at worst flaws in the game. Game mechanics should seek to redress them rather than emphasise them. Polarising actions into good and evil explicitly robs TOME of much of its unique flavour, and drains complexity out of roleplaying.

Which brings me to the much more important second point. The game has no way of knowing the player's motivations for doing anything. It can't, unless we deliberately build in detailed dialogue trees which let us tell it why we're making the decisions we are. A couple of examples:

I choose to save the merchant. Is it
a) because kidnapping merchants is Wrong and freeing them is Right?
b) because the merchant made the better offer (gee, gold up front and the possibility of further benefits later on versus servitude to a man with so little loyalty to his minions that he instantly tries to hire the man that killed them)?
c) because I'm really pissed off at having to wade through a bunch of thugs who attacked me without provocation, and want revenge?
d) because I just want the gang's ill-gotten gains for myself, and the merchant is an afterthought?

I choose to kill the Grand Corruptor. Is it
a) because he is obviously Evil and any plan of his must be foiled?
b) because I fear that if he succeeds it will lead to death or enslavement for me and my loved ones, no matter my general moral outlook?
c) because he is a rival for the demons' favour, and the world can only have one dark lord?
d) because he is a mage and that is enough? (this is kind of like a))
e) because he and his minions attacked me without provocation, and that's not something I forgive just because my half-dead attacker is begging for a truce?
f) because I'm an adventurer and everyone knows powerful evil wizards have the best treasure?
g) because if I'm powerful enough to be a threat to him now, he'll inevitably stab me in the back if I let him live?
h) because Melinda is waiting for me at home and I can't face the way she'll look at me if I tell her I've sided with a cultist of the same powers that tried to sacrifice her?

The possibilities are limited by my imagination as a role-player more than anything else.

This is a problem for all role-playing games I know of, with different ones occupying different positions on the spectrum of responses, from "try cover all the likely bases with well-chosen dialogue options" to "assign your own meaning to the silent protagonist's actions".

If we can't judge actions by motivation, we can only judge them by consequences. If you join the Ziguranth, you will lose access to arcane power and gain anti-magic training in return. The game doesn't need to know why. And it works from a role-playing perspective. Does your character wish to join the Ziguranth so much that they will do so even though it's a poor build from a gaming perspective? Are you a committed enough roleplayer to do that? Or conversely, will you pass anti-magic by even though it makes goood build sense, just because your character wouldn't join the Ziguranth? Or maybe your character doesn't care about the wider implications, and just wants to get those powers in exchange for those limitations. Maybe you don't care about roleplaying and just want to make that particular trade-off. In any case, the game doesn't judge or interpret. It just facilitates your decision.

This is why consequences need to be balanced and logical. If you save the merchant, you know that your reward will be money and greater purchasing options. This makes sense regardless of your motivations. On the other hand, you get nothing for siding with the Assassin Lord more than once (unless you take that one prodigy), and this makes for an unnatural choice. It turns that choice into a price for maintaining role-playing, rather than an actual meaningful decision for the player on both roleplaying and gameplay levels.

On the other hand, say the Assassin Lord offered a reward with similar value (such as a series of theft/assassination missions unlocked with character level, with fixed "shares of the loot" rewards or specialised assassin talents unlocked as you completed them and rose through the guild). You then could make that choice for roleplaying reasons, or gameplay reasons, or both, or maybe one would clash with the other and you'd have to decide. The game wouldn't know your motivations, and it wouldn't try to guess, but you would simply end up living with the logical consequences of your choices.

The important thing is that the TOME setting isn't about paying the price for being Good OR being rewarded for being Good. You can frame your decision in those terms if you wish to, but ultimately TOME embraces the belief that life is more complex than that. Orc genocide? You'll never know if you just saved the Allied Kingdoms from another devastating world war, or wiped out a future in which the orcish race is reborn and redeemed, or both in some sequence. Destroyed the Zuguranth? You've prevented the slaughter of countless innocent mages, maybe even created an opening for a magical renaissance in time, but that's one less power capable of stopping the Grand Corruptor and his like. And who knows just what the consequences of more magic in the world might be.

I'm writing this in kind of a hurry, so it's really poorly structured, but I hope the ideas themselves make sense. To conclude:

- The game doesn't know why you decide to do the things you do. It shouldn't punish or reward you, just play out the natural consequences of the choices you make.
- Good and Evil in TOME exist in people's heads, not written into the structure of the world. Game mechanics should not be based around the notion of moral absolutes and adherence to them.
- The consequences of a choice are the reward or punishment. If any given consequence isn't meaningful enough, this needs fixing in order to make the choice itself more meaningful. Adding abstract rewards or punishments that are separate from the actual practical consequences is artificial and forced.

[tylor]

I think most evil thing player can do in game is betraying escorts. How someone sending, say, sun paladin to horrible death just for using sun magic, can be a "good guy"?