Flexibility Points

[Infinitum]

Just an idea for respecing characters, what about removing the grace period for unlearning talents in favor of flex points granted on level up (say one every other level or so, each one which can be used to unlearn a single talent and get the point refund)?

This could help differentiating Cornacs further (by giving them more Flex points on level up), would make it simpler to adjust to what the game throws at you (eg finding an Alchemist escort for Mindstars.. after putting 4 points in Weapons Mastery) and would get rid of talent dancing (or whatever the exploit where you continously deselect/select talents that are useful for the early game but lack long term potential is called). It's not that the current system is bad, but it is quite prone to gaming and something of an unintuitive chore to utilize optimially as is.

EDIT: Added last sentence.

[jotwebe]

Sounds superior to the current system.

One curlicue would be to give extra points when you are low (say less then three) so that experimentation is not penalized.

[SageAcrin]

I prefer the current way.

Being able to unlearn entire skillsets is just as gameable-there's a decent amount of skills that are better early in the game than late-and much, much more easy to do.

And if you cut the points down to one per five levels or so, you've created a fairly limited respeccing that doesn't allow people to try out skills to see if they like them-which is pretty brutal in a system this complex.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but this doesn't feel like it to me.

[lukep]

Flex points look better for changing your build in the long run, but unlearning the last few looks better for short-term experimentation. Basically, take your pick for what you want.

[jotwebe]

Being able to unlearn entire skillsets is just as gameable-there's a decent amount of skills that are better early in the game than late-and much, much more easy to do.

Yeah, but where is the difficulty with the current system? Mostly in remembering to take the points away before putting in new ones, and passives you can even fiddle mid-combat. That at least is fixable.

In addition, as it is now, it rewards knowing which skills are good at which point in the game, and respeccing was introduced to help those a bit that didn't know this. So it's doing exactly the opposite of what was intended - it helps you if you know which skills you want to keep and where you want your points to be temporary, and punishes you if you don't.

And if you cut the points down to one per five levels or so, you've created a fairly limited respeccing that doesn't allow people to try out skills to see if they like them-which is pretty brutal in a system this complex.

Yeah, that would be to little. That's why Infinitum suggested one point every two levels, I guess

Flex points look better for changing your build in the long run, but unlearning the last few looks better for short-term experimentation.

That's why I suggested bonus points if you're low. If you experimented, that way you'd not loose out as much. I guess it'd still be possible to game this, especially if you got more than one point. So maybe bonus points only when you wouldn't get any that level otherwise?

If you look at a total newbie playing this game, you'll note that it's easy to overlook the respec functionality. With Infinitums system, people will have their points waiting for them.

[SageAcrin]

Yeah, but where is the difficulty with the current system? Mostly in remembering to take the points away before putting in new ones, and passives you can even fiddle mid-combat. That at least is fixable.

In addition, as it is now, it rewards knowing which skills are good at which point in the game, and respeccing was introduced to help those a bit that didn't know this. So it's doing exactly the opposite of what was intended - it helps you if you know which skills you want to keep and where you want your points to be temporary, and punishes you if you don't.

It's all well and good, but if you think people can game the system by juggling three/four points-at the cost, mind, of being able to do normal respeccing-you have no idea what I can do with 25 points of respecs.

Er I mean, someone. Yes, someone.

(My current respeccing gaming the system tends to be limited to not capping out Combat Accuracy except when I need it. If I gamed the system another way, I couldn't do that.

I'd lose that, but in exchange would gain the ability to retool entire categories? Excellent, I can go for a Hurricane Archmage until the Stun resistance gets big, and then dump the entire category and pick up full power defensive skills for the lategame. And that's just the first thing that comes to mind-there's far better, I'm pretty sure.)

[jotwebe]

It's all well and good, but if you think people can game the system by juggling three/four points-at the cost, mind, of being able to do normal respeccing-you have no idea what I can do with 25 points of respecs.

Once. And that's a strategic change, which I think is less disruptive than tactical to-and-fro, since that will potentially be done a lot, and gets in the way of playing the game. This sort of thing may be ok for FTL ("max power to the engines, stat"), but even there it gets old. Much more so in a fantasy game.

Er I mean, someone. Yes, someone.

(My current respeccing gaming the system tends to be limited to not capping out Combat Accuracy except when I need it. If I gamed the system another way, I couldn't do that.

Well, yeah, that's one of my favorite fiddles, too, when I play melee dudes anyway. It's only generics though, there's more to do with class points.

I'd lose that, but in exchange would gain the ability to retool entire categories? Excellent, I can go for a Hurricane Archmage until the Stun resistance gets big, and then dump the entire category and pick up full power defensive skills for the lategame. And that's just the first thing that comes to mind-there's far better, I'm pretty sure.)

Nobody said anything about categories, I don't think. Unless you mean "all the points in a category", and not category points.

Still, perhaps a cap of, say, 6 class points and 5 generics would help there? Or would that just lead to people developing complicated point transfer plans?

[SageAcrin]

Once. And that's a strategic change, which I think is less disruptive than tactical to-and-fro, since that will potentially be done a lot, and gets in the way of playing the game. This sort of thing may be ok for FTL ("max power to the engines, stat"), but even there it gets old. Much more so in a fantasy game.

Constantly retooling skill points comes at the cost of making actual respec possible, though.

It's something only an experienced player can do, as such-one that knows the game up one side and down the other. And to be honest...unless you're on Insane or something, how often do you need those kinds of advantages? After a point, those three/four points are going to be less than 5% of your point total. In general, an experienced player should be able to clear without it.

(Part of why I say this is because I don't swap outside of Combat Accuracy. That's literally all I do it for, outside of real respecs... >_>)

Still, perhaps a cap of, say, 6 class points and 5 generics would help there? Or would that just lead to people developing complicated point transfer plans?

Then you're basically combining the worst points of both systems, aren't you? There's not much that accomplishes that, say, having a skill swap reset the cooldown of any skills with points added/removed.

(Which is something I've suggested in the past, to prevent ultraswapping shenanigans.)

[jotwebe]

Constantly retooling skill points comes at the cost of making actual respec possible, though.

I do think a small amount of "free" points, like one point on levels where you wouldn't normally get any, provided you're skint, would help a bit there. But sure, the edge experienced players have isn't completely eliminated, but I think it's lessened a bit.

It's something only an experienced player can do, as such-one that knows the game up one side and down the other. And to be honest...unless you're on Insane or something, how often do you need those kinds of advantages? After a point, those three/four points are going to be less than 5% of your point total. In general, an experienced player should be able to clear without it.

But an experienced player can do it now, too, it just takes more work.

Personally, I play badly enough that I rarely clear with or without skillpoint trickery, but it can make a significant difference in the early game. Late game I agree, less so. Still, it lets you alternate a 2 class skills between 1/5 and 5/5, which can be quite noticable.

Then you're basically combining the worst points of both systems, aren't you? There's not much that accomplishes that, say, having a skill swap reset the cooldown of any skills with points added/removed.

(Which is something I've suggested in the past, to prevent ultraswapping shenanigans.)

Don't activated and sustained skills do that? Reset cooldowns? I somehow was under the impression that they did.

As for combining the worst points: not sure how it would play out. If people feel they have to use their points even before they want to and so make detailed plans, that would not be what I hoped for. Tactical point switching would still be out, which I would consider an improvement on it's own.

Hopefully people could switch out of a talent they didn't want any more without making too sweeping changes possible. But I don't think the sweeping changes would be that much of a problem.

Anyway, good night for now...

[nate]

I was wondering, with this subject popping up-- what about a prodigy that granted a one-time full respec? Would that be too good, too poor?

[HousePet]

Respec prodigy sounds lame.

As for the initial suggestion, why not have both systems?

One point per 10 levels, which can be used to reassign a talent point would be more than enough. That covers switching one weapon mastery for another. But isn't enough for a significant respec.

The trial system we currently have can be retained.

[Infinitum]

That would still leave the juggling in though - I'd prefer replacing the current grace period altogether.

If one were worried that players might hoard points to go for a lategame full on swap it would be easy enough to put a very low cap on the amount of flex one can save up. Or make it so that it cannot be saved up at all - say every two levels players may reassign up to one point in any cathegory (including actual cathegory and stat points) regardless how long they've known it. Cornacs, being the handsome, flexible, newbie friendly devils that we are may reassign a point every single level instead. At level 50 everyone is rewarded an additional 3 flex points for good measure (and to keep in line with the other rewards).

This would leave more than enough room to experiment as the character levels whilst still being unable to radically change the build lategame and wouldn't reward micromanaging the way the current system does.

[notmiki]

I love juggling skills and I do it all the time. I appreciate the flexibility that it gives you to fine-tune progression, especially since skill trees are designed so that on 4/8/12 you get a bunch of new possibilities all at once. I don't want to have to hoard points for a few levels just so I can grab all the lvl 8 skills I want when I hit. And giving me redeemable points to allow me the privilege is not a good solution - just means I need to pound my head deciding if I need to save them for later.

If people honestly think that mid-combat skill-swapping (which I never do outside the occasional "oops I forgot to level up") is a problem, how's this: no adding or removing skill points with enemies in LOS or when at less than full health or such. That should prevent mid-combat abuse (or at least make it very difficult) without ruining my fun.

[SageAcrin]

When I broached this before, people seem opposed to anything that would prevent them from leveling up in the middle of a battle.

(To the point where even putting active talents on a turn of cooldown, when raising/lowering active talents, seemed objectionable.)

So basically, it's sorta a catch 22-people don't like anything that would make active talents less effective when leveled up or down, but at the same time, people want active talents to not be optimal when leveled up and down constantly.

The absolute best idea I can have for this, in this light, is to make a three turn timed effect right after leveling, that simply doesn't let you level up/swap again for a few turns, applied after you leave the level up menu.

And that's really, really forced. I've never understood the cooldown objections (newly learned talents come in on full cooldown for this very reason, so that people can't do the much, much more effective trick of juggling on every possible talent they could learn, cast it, and then close it out), personally.

[Infinitum]

It's not as much the potential of abuse that I'd want to se addressed as the fact that playing the system optimally can be something of a chore done right - eg an archmage that want to tri-beam the early game but then specialize in a single element need to do (and remember!) a lot more clicking if s/he wants to maximize his chosen element ASAP. Now, it is by no measn necessary to do so in order to win the game but the player still has very strong incentives (and is amply rewarded) for doing so. In the system I proposed said Archmage could 1/1/1 Flame/Bolt/Thrust early and then forget about them and still not get penalized midgame despite not micromanaging.