make Alchemist bombs into slow projectile

[jotwebe]

How about Alchemist bombs travel a lot slower before they explode, at a speed calculated that they reach half of their maximum range after one round?

Aesthetically, this would echo the high point of the arc a thrown projectily describes, where it seems to hang in the air for a moment.

Conceptually, it seems strange that thrown bombs arrive at their target instantaneously, while arrows and slingshots take a longer.

Gameplay wise, the Alchemist bombs could use a touch of the nerfbat. The player would also have old-school instant bombs available, at half the maximum range. This would make investing in DEX attractive, a stat that I think was supposed to be of some importance to the class.

[SageAcrin]

Alchemist bombs have been changed to not run off Dex at all, actually. (And IIRC the Dex suggestion has been removed from Alchemist's description.)

Having said that, as long as they're not too slow of a projectile(maybe 300-400%?), this seems neat enough to me.

[Zonk]

Not a bad idea, but I just thought something else...what if the explosion itself spread gradually? I'd find that quite awesome(picturing characters jumping away from explosions), but I suspect it would be too big of a nerf...

[SageAcrin]

As much as Maj'eyal resembles a rock album cover at points, people walking slowly away from explosions constantly might be a little too much like one.

(Which is to say, it doesn't make much sense, nor does it function like other explosive type abilities in the game either, such as Fireflash.)

[Zonk]

Yeah, I know the walking away from explosions image is silly

To be consistant it should apply to other explosions too and then it would be a huge change - I just mentione dit because it semeed related, didn't want to single out alchemists.
And by gradually I meant 'fast' but not instant, so it really would only matter for large explosions.

[jotwebe]

I kinda think alchemists could use a couple of locked trees similar to Fire Alchemy, but concentrating on the other alchemist elements. A "slow bomb" like a targeted tidal wave is something that could fit pretty well into a hypothetical cold or acid tree.

[skein]

Before you say they deserve the nerfbat you have to post a winner with one :p It is surprisingly hard to win with one since you require non class abilities to do so. (some form of tracking a sorcerer and several ways of avoiding him.

Not like amathalon where you can literally just kill him with topaz bombs.

Conceptually it would actually be kinda useful for them to have a speed of at least 400%. I am not sure it is a nerf though. Throwing then leaving then becomes an option.

[jotwebe]

Before you say they deserve the nerfbat you have to post a winner with one :p It is surprisingly hard to win with one since you require non class abilities to do so. (some form of tracking a sorcerer and several ways of avoiding him.

I wouldn't put it as strongly as "deserve", more like it wouldn't hurt, specifically bombs, which kind of crowd out the other alchemist abilities.

Anyway, the aesthetic reasons are actually the main reasons behind this, and the balance thing more a "wouldn't hurt".

[omeg]

If they were slow projectiles I imagine it would be infuriating to have to wait for them to hit after every throw (yeah, I can't play archers either)

[SageAcrin]

Before you say they deserve the nerfbat you have to post a winner with one :p

What, Alchemist?

http://te4.org/characters/10195/tome/f4 ... 6baf2e4bfe

More deaths than I really should have had, mind you. The latter death was me screwing around too much (REALLY should have had Golem open the door to the Room of Death, got killed the turn I opened the door.) and the former was highly freakish bad luck(IIRC I ran into two Rares, teleported, and got slammed into by a rare bugswarm while my bomb was on cooldown. Still my fault, the play was sloppy on both cases.).

They do need a nerf-not because I'm offended by them being good, but because I'd like there to be more ways to play one without breaking them insanely, and adding new skills to them as they stand right now would do that. And Alchemist bombs being slower would be a good way to give them a minor nerf.

The other thing I'd kinda like to see is the bonus from what tier of gem you used being lower.

My very first Alchemist(which was the first character I got East on) was a character I didn't realize the gem tier mattered for, and they did surprisingly well-the later run where I knew that (among things) was far, far easier, and the first run felt really strong, so that was kinda disconcerting.

It's also, looking at the code, a non-linear bonus, as near as I can tell. 20+15 power for each gem tier...except Tier 5, which is 70 for some reason instead of 80.

At any rate, I'd much rather see it be something like 20+(5 per gem tier level). I'm pretty sure that'd still be good. 20+10 per gem tier would surely be safe, and wouldn't be a massive nerf. (No reason to make low end gems worse, low end bombs are already pretty bad before the secondary skills get rolling.)

It's sorta hard to describe the role the gem tier bonus plays in the code-I'm not even entirely sure I understand it. But I do know the rough impact, from having done a run with them, and I'm pretty sure that topping out at the power level tier 3 gems are now wouldn't be fatal for Alchemist. Topping out a bit below tier 4 certainly wouldn't be.

[wobbly]

They do need a nerf-not because I'm offended by them being good, but because I'd like there to be more ways to play one without breaking them insanely, and adding new skills to them as they stand right now would do that. And Alchemist bombs being slower would be a good way to give them a minor nerf.

Wouldn't it be better keeping alchies good, as a sort of easier class & having an alternative alchemist that is a little more interesting to play? I know there's that alchemist+ addon. Haven't had the chance to play it yet to see if it's good.

[SageAcrin]

Lemme put it this way:

Hearing people complain constantly about Solipsist was mind-numbing enough so that I don't want to hear it again, if I can at all help it. I'm not blaming people, or anything, there. I can see why people feel something they consider cheatingly levels of powerful in a game they consider a skill based challenge game is offensive. It's just not something I'd like a repeat of.

Alchemist with a lot of good, versatile Class sinks like that addon is going for, as I understand it-a class, mind you, that can very easily run out of useful places to put Class points as it stands-would be dangerously close to that level, is my expectation.

Yet, as it stands, Alchemist really is extremely simple-even more simple than classes like Berserker, in practice-and builds of Alchemist very rarely drift much from a specific build.

It's not that I mind there being powerful classes. It's that I mind people constantly complaining about them, and/or them being boring. I like Alchemist a lot, and I don't want to change the core of it, but lowering the core power a little so that they can gain a little versatility power-and be a little less cookie-cutter-seems harmless to me.

[Velorien]

To back up what SageAcrin is saying, I've always assumed that the lack of versatility was a way of balancing alchemists' extraordinary firepower - sure, you can wipe out armies with a single casually thrown rock, but that rock had better get them all because you don't have Conveyance, you don't have Aegis, your backup offensive options are pretty limited, and pretty much all the escapes, cures and other utilities you have are tied to inscriptions and an unreliable and increasingly frail golem.

Which is balanced in a way - even as a beginner I managed to get an alchemist to the Prides, only to be curbstomped because suddenly damage alone wasn't enough - but it does make for rather dull and repetitive gameplay after a while.

[jotwebe]

I've always assumed that the lack of versatility was a way of balancing alchemists' extraordinary firepower - sure, you can wipe out armies with a single casually thrown rock, but that rock had better get them all because you don't have Conveyance, you don't have Aegis, your backup offensive options are pretty limited, and pretty much all the escapes, cures and other utilities you have are tied to inscriptions and an unreliable and increasingly frail golem.

I'm operating under the theory that bombs and the golem were intended to be equally powerful tools in your arsenal. More or less, anyway. But since they're already a very powerful class, bombs would need to be nerfed before the other stuff can get a hand up.

[skein]

They are not that easy to win with though. It is FAR easier to win as an archmage.

This was made even worse recently by making mobs in vaults have to see you before you can damage them. You used to be able to throw bombs around corners on the assumption that something was there, this no longer works. (and gets me killed in dreadfell from opening the damn undead pits and getting one shotted by mages).

Bombs are very powerful but they have a cooldown and only outpace other aoes in the endgame. Fireflash and Blastwave do a huge amount of damage as well and are backed up with real defenses and real movement abilities.

You are making the wrong comparison when you compare an alchemist to other classes. They are very squishy and have a hard time getting out of the way when they need to.