Thaloren specific Class?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

We got stone wardens for dwarves, how about other racial specific classes?

Like to see a thaloren druid, or whatever you want to call it. I'm not talking the typical wilder stuff we've seen, I want something that emphasizes the natural aspects of nature magic. Grow vines from the ground to ensnare or slow foes. Cause thorns to emerge from an area to damage targets walking over it. Perhaps a talent to buff and work in tandem with the thaloren racial that summons treants.
Maybe the ability to grow or manipulate trees/plants. (Or both.) causing branches to stretch out and block a path, or restrain a target. Mold spores and some offensive fungus, possibly working in tandem with the existing fungus tree. Perhaps shifting the flow of natural water to do some things. (Healing comes to mind) Perhaps being so in touch with nature it takes some care and attention around you, providing you with a breeze to slow and (partially) deflect ranged attacks... not MAGIC, but natural forces being bent, not commanded, to aid you.

I'm not looking for 'lets imitate a monster' like wyrmic does, or 'lets summon things' like a summoner does, I'm looking for natural things.

Thoughts? Likes? Dislikes?

[XLambda]

Yep, and I've been working on a concept for it.

It's not quite there yet, though, so if you want, why don't we pool our efforts?

EDIT: Some ideas:

* Equilibrium as a resource seems nonsensical for a druid. I mean, it supposedly represents how out of tune with Ol' Ma Nature you are. So if you use nature powers, why should it rise? Perhaps DG can clarify this, since he is the expert on the setting.

* I like the idea of basing the Druid mainly around plant stuff. We have fungus, but it's more of a generic wild regen thing. (BTW, having a Tree tree for, say, defense would be utterly hilarious.)

* Staffs as weapons are the domain of Mages in ToME, and while it probably wouldn't be too hard to code wilder staffs, I'm not sure whether just sticking to mindstars wouldn't be more fitting in-universe. Again, perhaps DG can chime in with his opinion on the matter.

* Please no D&D- or Pathfinder-like animal companions for Druids. We have the summoner class for that.

[Fhtagn]

I like it. Quite a bit, actually.
I'm thinking Treestride + Quicken Growth, throwing seeds (or just using those already in the ground) to let plants sprout, then being able to teleport from tree to tree...
I agree with the "no animal companion", by the way. That's kind of... lame.

[HousePet]

I've got a basic Druid design as an antimage. It will use staves and spellpower to uncast magical spells.
Going with mindstars is an option for a druidic class, but seems a bit boring.

[Wolpertinger]

I've got a basic Druid design as an antimage. It will use staves and spellpower to uncast magical spells.
Going with mindstars is an option for a druidic class, but seems a bit boring.

'Antimage' sounds pretty interesting.

[skein]

Finally a use for all those arcane disrupting staffs.

I would make a druid an anti alchemist. Give him a pet of some type (or let him permanently charm any animal he finds). Then give him pet trees close to what the golem trees look like, one of which lets him turn a temporary charmed animal into a companion.

Then let him throw a ball type spell that only does damage to mages (but really ruins there day) say something that is level and skill based but drains any light/vim/mana and turns it into damage.

Staff combat has never really been required to be spell true. You could just decide that channeling a staff is not a magical act. The mana cost now is trivial so make it some other resource or just remove the cost to use altogether. Making channel staff stamina based would be funny and appropriate.

He should be mostly equilibrium based and could have the anti magic tree as base. Either mindstars or a new imrpoved staff combat tree would be the two choices of merit.

The trick is diffrentiating him from a summoner. I am not real happy with the summoner atm so the class needs work anyway (even though it is plenty powerful enough and capable, it is just overly boring and annoying)

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Kinda agree with the antisummoning route, not sure about animal companions. I *MIGHT* be able to see short-based commands for plant based things. (More then just reats, grow some venus flytraps, poison ivy, or something.) Perhaps use these in conjunction with the concept of 'spore attacks'... Probably needs a new set of plants to go with it, but the possibility is nice. As for EQ, if the 'druid' uses it, I was thinking of actually giving him dynamic regeneration of it... But this might create issues with other EQ abilities that he might get through escort or other means... Regardless, I kinda ike the idea of 'bending, but not breaking' nature. He doesn't magically force nature to do what he wants, but gently nudges it in a certain direction. (Hence, my idea of 'a breeze as a gift from nature, that slows or partially deflects arrows', he doesn't create massive tornadoes, or anything overt, but works with subtlety within the bounds of what 'nature might give him'. I kinda like the idea of offering some natural effects based off of water/air and plants. I also want to steer clear of things he could only use in 'outdoor' or 'wooded' areas. I don't mind giving him things that relate to using mushrooms/flowers/grass/trees/etc, as long as he's given a means of USING them, by creating said plants. Seeds could be a nifty ammo based resource he could use to create trees/plants etc, using different abilities. Perhaps an 'extract' from certain items? Maybe nature powered things, maybe natural things like leather, I dunno. Concept needs a bit of work. If we go the 'animal ensnarement' route, I vote for PURELY temporary. We don't need a golem ripoff, that's the province of an alchemist, and the idea is to create something new, not rehash existing classes under a different name. I kinda like the idea of offering him a sustain that 'brings to a more active existence, the vines and natural plants in an area around him'. As these plants shift and move, it creates unstable footing for other creatures, slowing them as they try to walk through it. (Imagine all the vines and roots in a forest shifting and moving a bit, creating unstable terrain that trips, slows, etc.) Maybe even a chance to stun if they trip (kind of like tripping on a rock trap.).

Also kind of like the concept of 'non-offensive' spells. Things where nature is reaching out to help, but not really doing the druids job for him. I sort of envisioned him relying on light armor and weapons (Leather, MAYBE the occasional piece of mail, and onehanded weapons, but not necessarily daggers. Mindstars could be possible, especially for mindpower, but I'd prefer to steer clear of giving him psiblades.) but heavier then the staff. The concept of a non-mana based use for those arcane disrupting staffs is intriguing however. Perhaps the idea of a shaleighleigh (Ugh, can't even begin to spell that.) could be brought into play? D&D referred to those as druidic weapons, though I hate to rip them off. (Actually I don't know that THEY did, but the Cleric Quintet did) They were, however, Irish in origin, so I don't know what real background surrounds the concept. I kinda see a druid ignoring metal things, in favor of more natural alternatives. Maybe some sort of 'attunement' to wood could allow them damage bonuses with wooden and leather items, giving them staffs, clubs, maybe the shaleighleigh idea, and slings (maybe bows, probably not. We have bow classes like time warden, but we could always use more sling classes.).

All just ideas at the moment.

[NEHZ]

How using plants as a counterpart to the necromancer? I'm envisioning it with a tree like this:
Wild Gift - Wild Cultivation
Nature's Shepert - sustain, each turn has a talentlevel% chance to summon an immobile plant within range 3. The plants lasts (mindpower+talentlevel based) turns.
some passive that gives you health and/or equilibrium when one of the plants die
some passive or sustain that increases the offensive capabilities of the plants or gives them all return damage on hit
some active skill that makes all plants release spores.

Edit: to explain a bit what I mean with it being a counterpart to the necromancer:
The necromancer binds the dead in eternal survitude to walk and appear exactly where he wants them to. These plants would however appear randomly on random spots because they want to.

[XLambda]

I've got a basic Druid design as an antimage. It will use staves and spellpower to uncast magical spells.

Mmh. I'm not sure. IMO this is different - nature and arcane-disrupting forces aren't the same, both technically and themewise. Related, probably, but not the same. There's a reason antimagic can be obtained only in Zigur, yet wilders are not restricted to the Ziguranth.

What we are missing in terms of power sources is a pure nature class and a pure antimagic class. The latter is IMO not really feasibly as a pure caster, since you still need to do damage to non-mages, and there's quite a lot of those in the game.
The former, though, is entirely possible without any restrictions on who it can damage. So I think we should be going for that.

How using plants as a counterpart to the necromancer? I'm envisioning it with a tree like this:
Wild Gift - Wild Cultivation
Nature's Shepert - sustain, each turn has a talentlevel% chance to summon an immobile plant within range 3. The plants lasts (mindpower+talentlevel based) turns.
some passive that gives you health and/or equilibrium when one of the plants die
some passive or sustain that increases the offensive capabilities of the plants or gives them all return damage on hit
some active skill that makes all plants release spores.

Not really a big fan of this idea. It would have to be substantially different gameplay-wise from the necro to be interesting (remember, classes shouldn't just look and sound different, they should also play differently), and I don't really see that. This is just my opinion though.

I'm trying not to bash everyone's ideas, it's just that I have a somewhat different taste in gameplay.

I don't have my laptop with my notes with me ATM, I'll post some of my own concepts when I get home.

[Sooty]

I'm actually of the opinion that new classes/races shouldn't be this restrictive... why not open it up to more races :3

[NEHZ]

Not really a big fan of this idea. It would have to be substantially different gameplay-wise from the necro to be interesting (remember, classes shouldn't just look and sound different, they should also play differently), and I don't really see that. This is just my opinion though.

I'm trying not to bash everyone's ideas, it's just that I have a somewhat different taste in gameplay.

I don't have my laptop with my notes with me ATM, I'll post some of my own concepts when I get home.

The way I see it it would play differently. It's more similair to the doomed's shades.
The way I see the different summons in this game:
Summoner - asks nature for help. Can reliably and instantly summon what where you want, as long as your equilibrium doesn't stretch too far. Focus of the class. Highly interactive.
Alchemist - constructs it's own personalized aid that follows everywhere. No upkeep or anything besides resurrection/healing for some stones. Melee range placement, but extremely mobile. Big support for the class, can be focused.
Doomed - summons shades for hatred. Mobile and orientated towards offense. Support for the class.
Necromancer - instantly summons minions at the cost of souls. Random in the type of minions you get, reliable in placement and mobility, though they can't stray too far. Major support for or focus of the class, depending on the build.
Suggested druid - summons randomly at no cost (other than that of keeping open the sustain). Immobile and defensivly orientated. Support for the class.

To differientiate further, perhaps it's fun if the plants initially get summoned as sprouts, then grow a stage each turn until fully grown at stage 3. This would make them even less the instant summons that the necromancer's minions are and work reverse to the Summoner's grand entrances.
The range could also be increased to increase the random element, but that could lead to gamey gameplay where you keep still in one spot outside a door untill they happen to grow as you wish.

btw, does the meditation's damage reduction affect return damage? If not, it could be interesting to allow for a druid build that has meditation on for the entire game by having the summons not enherit the reduction and focus the class on indirect ways to deal damage. (...could be annoying to fight timed events though)

Please do express your tase in gameplay, I'm getting interested in the different ways a druid could be expressed.

I'm actually of the opinion that new classes/races shouldn't be this restrictive... why not open it up to more races :3

To increase the mystique around the class and expand the world's lore. Though I guess Mindslayer managed to be entrenched in Yeek lore without being restricted to the race.

[Winston]

i like the idea of race-specific classes. Stone Warden looks and plays nice, especially synergy between already existing racial abilities and their upgrade with class passives. For Thalore, something plant-oriented would be cool. You live in the forest, enjoying your peaceful life in harmony with Nature, then some bastards come to chop down trees, burn fires, throw junk, etc. You(and plants too) get angry, you kill them all for despoiling the forest, you rip them apart, you use their remains as fertilizer to grow more plants around the forest. There should be more such stuff in games .

[HousePet]

Summoning of immobile plants sounds interesting.

As for whether its nature or antimagic, I'm leaning towards nature. I believe Oozemaster is going to be rather antimagic.
Sort of a mage/wilder hybrid, but instead of using your magical ability to distort nature, you use your abilities to enhance nature instead.
Its arcane, nature and antimagic together, so it averages to nature.

I'm thinking of giving a special reward for completing the Antimagic trial, since loosing the ability to use arcane stuff sounds a bit of a detriment to my planned class. Instead you get an Equilibrium Surge rune.

[XLambda]

Well my concept ran along these lines. Please bear in mind that they are random ideas, somewhat disjointed.

- Druids should be the counterpart of corruptors. Since corruptors (and by extension defilers) are all about damage and don't really have a ton of options otherwise, druids should feature those options heavily. Using the environment / nature powers for defensive purposes while disabling the enemies and hitting them with ranged attacks. Preferably these shouldn't be too horribly weak. I mean, they shouldn't be crazy powerful like corruptor spells, but all the defense they can have will not be of much use once the enemy breaks through. Likewise, they should have some means of passive defense beyond fungus. Not horribly OP, but enough to keep you alive for a moment if you run into a powerful rare or boss hiding behind a corner.

- I had this weird idea about them being heavily AOE-based, but realized that that was pretty crap. In most situations that do not necessitate heavy CC, you pay for a large area of effect with low damage. And you don't want to shoot an expensive radius-4 AOE thing that does weak-ish DOT at a single high-powered enemy (or, god forbid, rats). At least one single-target nuke or something that is equal to a nuke after heavy debuffs should be available in their arsenal. Still, some AOE talents would be sweet.

- Since druids as the high priests of nature should not suffer (at least not as heavily) from fizzling wild-gifts when they use them too often (they ARE druids after all), why not bring in a second resource, perhaps similar to stamina. What popped into my mind at this point was photosynthesis (mostly inspired by the wilders in Shatur). Give them a low photosynthesis rate and one or two skills to get fast energy in battle, but in turn affecting equilibrium. Or perhaps a more complicated relation between equilibrium and the unnamed resource. I don't know, there are a lot of options here. But the idea would be to let the main druid skills run with this resource and the rest over equilibrium.

- A series of weather- or season-based sustains. This is just very interesting theme-wise. These could be either AOE (kind of like Thunderstorm in the Lightning tree), give buffs and debuffs to certain parts of the druid arsenal or other useful things. Kind of like the chants and hymns of the Celestials. This is really vague, but I am madly in love with the theme.

- To achieve the play-style mentioned in the first point, a druid class would require both disablers and damage-dealing talents. A special worry of mine in this context would be mages - giving druids some general mobility talents is an option of course, but doesn't make sense if druids are more of the stationary caster type. They would prefer to attack from the distance and stay where they are, so they should be able to. However, if the druids' damage output or defense against magical attacks is too low, they can't effectively counter mages in any way. Since mages are a pretty big deal in tome, there needs to be a way to manage them to some degree.

- At any time in combat, fortifying the current position or moving to a more easily defendable position should be preferred instead of moving towards the enemy. (This is radically different to the defiler's mantra "lol, it's dead in two turns, so who cares". )

- Theme-wise, there are a few things that could be done. Plant-based talents are the obvious choice, trees and various smaller plants (I still think about flower-based talents, to connect to Bloomsoul lore-wise) could easily provide the thematical background for most of the class talents. Again, I dislike animal companions because we already have the summoner, and he's good at what he does.

- I would go either for mindstars or staffs for weapons. I like the former because it is more fitting in-universe, but I'm not sure druids should get mindstar mastery. At most locked, I would say, since they wouldn't depend on them for emergency melee damage as much as, say, a summoner does. (One could also offer a second mindstar-based tree, but that would probably be overkill.) And there are enough other equally delightful things one could offer as locked trees.

- No special focus on fungus or mold or similar things. AFAIK the oozemancer does that (when it's finished).

[NEHZ]

How about poison? (unless the oozemancer does that as well)

Damage over time would allow you to deal high damage to single targets without getting to a 2-strike all is dead situation. Perhaps give poison skills to any summoned plants, or make a ranged poison tree. This would also give you a platform for disables. Also, poison is very nature
This would however make the druid very weak against those immune to poison. Nature penetration won't work if the target can't be poisoned.
On that subject, what should be the major damage types of a druid? Nature of course, but there should be at least one other damage type to back it up. Elemental damage such as cold or lightning, tied in to that weather theme? (this, I believe, should increase your equilibrium) Or physical damage? (strangling vines, falling branches, wind packed with debris, ground making you stumble)