So I recently started playing the not very popular roguelike Elona again, and I realized I'm actually pretty bummed out that Development for it officially stopped.
And I couldnt quite put my finger on why, there was something about this roguelike that really drew me in. It wasnt the tiles, sure its kinda cool that they're oldschool 16bit era jRPG tiles but we have an addon for that in tome.
It wasnt the combat because in comparison to roguelikes these days, the combat is pretty lackluster, its essentially ADOM combat with a few extra features.
The progression system is ok, I like skill based roguelikes but tome is just as good because tomes system works for it, and works great.
Then I realized, it was the plethora of non-combat options available in the game.
I can farm, I can raise critters on a ranch, I can run a museum, I can be a merchant, I can do deliveries, I can run escorts that arent limited to only a handful per game, I can craft all sorts of stuff, I can even literally do nothing and still advance my character (albeit at an extremely crippled rate).
And when I realized that, I also realized for as awesome as ToME 4 is, and how much potential the engine has, its a pretty shallow game currently. Your options are combat, and more combat.
Dont get me wrong, I love tome and enjoy it. There is a staggering amount of replayability / customization / options you have for your char development. In the combat department. But thats it.
Are there ANY plans whatsoever for activities in ToME outside of murdering? I wouldnt expect it to be at an elona level, as that was one of the design goals from the start of dev to allow for those vast options. But something? Anything?
Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Well T4 is a tactical combat focus game; now if you have ideas of things interresting to add I'm always open to listening 
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
In TOME there are already a few non-combat activities. The alchemist can turn loot into gems and enchant items, mindslayers can enchance their equipment, some items can enchant/destroy other items, there are a few side quests/plots... The problem is that non-combat doesn't fit in the game, except as a way to tactically improve combat. However, the following would be interesting additions to the game:
1. Bring back the TOME2 alchemist's create artifact ability in the form of a prodigy, giving the player the ability to turn any normal item into an artifact and add some customizable boosts. If they find a better item they can destroy their artifact and make a new one, but they need to kill some enemies to earn back all of these boosts.
2. More item tinkering abilities. Perhaps a blacksmithing tree that allows the player to put their craft into improving weapons/armor, or some tree that allows items to be infused with nature.
3. A side campaign where the player crafts items for some adventurers and watches them succeed with the items.
1. Bring back the TOME2 alchemist's create artifact ability in the form of a prodigy, giving the player the ability to turn any normal item into an artifact and add some customizable boosts. If they find a better item they can destroy their artifact and make a new one, but they need to kill some enemies to earn back all of these boosts.
2. More item tinkering abilities. Perhaps a blacksmithing tree that allows the player to put their craft into improving weapons/armor, or some tree that allows items to be infused with nature.
3. A side campaign where the player crafts items for some adventurers and watches them succeed with the items.
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Please no crafting :(
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Wouldn't mind critter farming, though. Especially if mount-stuff ever gets worked out and implemented, but just in general, too. Have a little stable of storm wyrms, re-enact the coming of the lightning elementals, only in Last Hope and with dragons 
Or a rat farm. Slowly build them up in strength, cross breed them with trolls and giants (look, don't ask about the mechanics, alright? Magic is magical.), unleash twenty story tall regenerating rats on the post-dreadfell ambush. Hilarity.
As for Elona, isn't there some kind of... java port, I think? Being worked on still? Fan development, but I don't think Elona related work is completely dead yet.
Or a rat farm. Slowly build them up in strength, cross breed them with trolls and giants (look, don't ask about the mechanics, alright? Magic is magical.), unleash twenty story tall regenerating rats on the post-dreadfell ambush. Hilarity.
As for Elona, isn't there some kind of... java port, I think? Being worked on still? Fan development, but I don't think Elona related work is completely dead yet.
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Ignore this guy. I love crafting. Just don't make it so gameplay balance absolutely hinges on whether or not you can craft. Then it just becomes kind of a chore.Grey wrote:Please no crafting
If crafting does get added, it should be a bonus skill that everyone can get, like shooting bows or combat training. It'd be something to do with our spare alchemy ingredients. Maybe we could start with the ability to make runes and infusions? No more games where you're an arcane blade with five points in shielding and are about to exit dreadfell without a better shielding rune than the one you started with.
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
You'd have to come up with one damned compelling crafting system to convince me. I've seen crafting done well in very few RPGs; usually, it's a useless skill until you can build the best items, at which point it becomes the best skill.
A "beastmaster" or "monster rancher" minigame sounds amusing, but probably more appropriate as a separate campaign.
A "beastmaster" or "monster rancher" minigame sounds amusing, but probably more appropriate as a separate campaign.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Please, no ToMeVille.
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
I'd rather see such concepts kept to secondary addons or campaigns than part of the main game.
It's developed for a few years now without crafting, farming, etc. secondary activities-it would simply be hard to weld them onto the body of the game without either having them be too powerful or too weak.
And in either case, the player vs game tendency people have when playing Roguelikes(Since they kill you so much) makes people that aren't into those activities normally feel obligated to do such safer activities in order to get an edge of any kind on the game. Kind of a clash of crowds, there.
It's probably doable, don't get me wrong, but it's really something that should be an initial design goal in a Roguelike, if you're going to shoot for that.
(Of course, some very basic styles of crafting (like gem infusions) are already in the game, so on a very basic level it's part of the game's design. I'm referring to more complex systems than that, here.)
It's developed for a few years now without crafting, farming, etc. secondary activities-it would simply be hard to weld them onto the body of the game without either having them be too powerful or too weak.
And in either case, the player vs game tendency people have when playing Roguelikes(Since they kill you so much) makes people that aren't into those activities normally feel obligated to do such safer activities in order to get an edge of any kind on the game. Kind of a clash of crowds, there.
It's probably doable, don't get me wrong, but it's really something that should be an initial design goal in a Roguelike, if you're going to shoot for that.
(Of course, some very basic styles of crafting (like gem infusions) are already in the game, so on a very basic level it's part of the game's design. I'm referring to more complex systems than that, here.)
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
The breeding thing could be very fun for another campaign:
Capture and breed monsters, then let them battle it out in the arena and win big!
Kind of like pokemon, except your monsters can die.
Different classes for your character:
Ranger, focusses on capturing
Farmer, focusses on breeding
Archmage, focusses on magical experiments
And all kind of crossclasses
See if you can defeat my blighted undead mice!
I've never had a game where I felt I really lacked a good weapon or amulet, but in some games the right runes and infusions just don't drop.
Capture and breed monsters, then let them battle it out in the arena and win big!
Kind of like pokemon, except your monsters can die.
Different classes for your character:
Ranger, focusses on capturing
Farmer, focusses on breeding
Archmage, focusses on magical experiments
And all kind of crossclasses
See if you can defeat my blighted undead mice!
That would be nice. If it doesn't cost any class/generic points but only money to get crafting and doesn't make the best items, people won't bother grinding it. Yet it can still grant you some runes/infusions that you just lack.belmarduk wrote: If crafting does get added, it should be a bonus skill that everyone can get, like shooting bows or combat training. It'd be something to do with our spare alchemy ingredients. Maybe we could start with the ability to make runes and infusions? No more games where you're an arcane blade with five points in shielding and are about to exit dreadfell without a better shielding rune than the one you started with.
I've never had a game where I felt I really lacked a good weapon or amulet, but in some games the right runes and infusions just don't drop.
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Yeah like I said im not picturing anything major, but another diversion to take up from time to time. Right now the only 2 options when I get sick of being owned by the master is either the Arena campaign which always bugs out on me, or the ID which is just unfair majority of the time.
Maybe incorporate it into the fortress. Right now my fortress energy goes almost unused most games. I might do 1 or 2 farportals but beyond that I really dont need to do them. Maybe using energy to craft yourself pets? You can use any of your spare alchemist ingredients to create one of those pets, costing anywheres from 5-30 energy depending on how strong you want it?
I dont think much should be invested into them. While it would be cool to have them be able to level up along side you, gain talents, etc. thats probably a lot of effort that could go elsewhere. Just fodder to throw your fortress energy into. Make yourself a storm wyrm, cant level up, and once it's dead it's dead. Probably short lived, but could be useful at times.
Imagine a 30 powered Green Worm Elite
Maybe incorporate it into the fortress. Right now my fortress energy goes almost unused most games. I might do 1 or 2 farportals but beyond that I really dont need to do them. Maybe using energy to craft yourself pets? You can use any of your spare alchemist ingredients to create one of those pets, costing anywheres from 5-30 energy depending on how strong you want it?
I dont think much should be invested into them. While it would be cool to have them be able to level up along side you, gain talents, etc. thats probably a lot of effort that could go elsewhere. Just fodder to throw your fortress energy into. Make yourself a storm wyrm, cant level up, and once it's dead it's dead. Probably short lived, but could be useful at times.
Imagine a 30 powered Green Worm Elite
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Non-dangerous, repetitive, time-consuming activities = grinding 
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
If you were going to implement something like breeding into th'main campaign, it'd probably either involve break points (Kill X bosses, Y happens, ferex.) or fortress energy (the infinite accumulation of which is non-trivial and extremely dangerous). No need for it to be non-dangerous, basically
... or repetitive, or particularly time consuming to the extent grind tends to be. These things can be designed around, yeah.
... or repetitive, or particularly time consuming to the extent grind tends to be. These things can be designed around, yeah.
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
A seperate campaign module, using the same setting, but playing as a trader/crafter/whatever could be interesting.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Plans for non-combat activities in ToME4?
Rainbow Silk Road crossed with Pokemon, with maybe a bit of, shit, I'unno, Princess Maker thrown in, in Maj'Eyal? I would dig that with the inebriated fury of a thousand drunken midgets.
It'd probably be pretty far from a roguelike, though
Then again... Recettear wasn't too far off, really, iirc. Draw some inspiration, maybe flesh out some party mechanics and have instanced dungeon crawling in a turn based environ... I could see it. No way in hell I could code it, but I can see it. It's kinda' beautiful.
It'd probably be pretty far from a roguelike, though
Then again... Recettear wasn't too far off, really, iirc. Draw some inspiration, maybe flesh out some party mechanics and have instanced dungeon crawling in a turn based environ... I could see it. No way in hell I could code it, but I can see it. It's kinda' beautiful.