Concise proposals

[Guevara-chan]

...Not much a brainstorming (as you might thought), more like condensation of misc. notions in as sophisticated form, as possible:
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[*][/b] Could there be no such thing, as young and level 1 Archmages ? Something less pretendious, i.e. ‘Omnimagus’, would be much more fitting.
[*][/b] Could there be no living poultry in Dreadfell, aside of, possibly, vermins ? Red dragons is a bit off, if you ask me.
[*][/b] Could there be no such unambiguous statements as fire and lightning damage ? Heat and voltaic would be just fine.
[*][/b] Could it be possible to grant incorporeal enemies physical immunity on higher difficulties ? Since elemental beings already got their protections..
[*][/b] Could it be possible to use pickaxe as (exotic) weapon if hand slots are empty ? There are historical precedents of crushing helmets with such imposing tool.
[*][/b] Could light and mind damage’s colors in log be a little more different ? Some icons would be even more appreciated, actually...
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*...More to come, yet feel free to add your own. Perfection always reside at details level, so...*

[azrael]

1)
Although I agree that the idea of a level one archmage is a little silly, no other class has level-dependant names, and probably never will.
2)
I would hardly call a dragon poultry. At least not to its face.
3)
This is a good point. While we're on the subject, some of the damage types, in general, just throw me off. What's the difference between light and fire damage? How does "darkness" or "arcane" damage something? If I hit someone with a manathrust, is it like a spear made of energy? If so, why isn't it physical damage? The same goes for darkness.
4)
Although I agree that this would make sense, some classes (mostly melee) pretty much deal ONLY physical damage, and they have a hard enough time as it is
5)
Yes. I've always wanted to stab something with the Tooth of The Mouth
6)
I agree with this too; they're a little too similar (perhaps mind damage could be gray?)

[bricks]

Regarding Archmages - while there aren't any other class names that suggest a level of attainment, there are a lot of classes with implicit back-story, and they all start with basic abilities. If you need justification, think of it this way: you've been training in Angolwen for years, but only now are you traveling out into the real world to gain first-hand experience in combat magic. Mages are a bunch of bookworms anyway.

...All that said, I kind of like the idea of getting a new class title every few levels, purely for flavor's sake. Something like Apprentice (1-9), Hedge Mage (10-19), Mage (20-29), High Mage (30-39), Archmage (40-50). It seems like an idea DarkGod and Grey might like.

I've always thought it would be nice for every non-undead monster in Dreadfell to be replaced with undead versions, either through a little script or by actually introducing some new monsters. I don't know how appropriate undead dragons would be, since there are very, very few in ToME. It would also be a lot of work both on the technical and artistic side.

"Heat" and "voltaic" sound way too technical, and I don't think they are even what you are trying to express. It's just my engineering reflexes, but "heat" is a badly-abused term, and generally refers more to a process or an action than a property. Worse, though, is "voltaic" - it's not really common parlance, and a quick definition check shows that it is generally used to refer to electrical current or EMF produced by chemical action, like a battery. "Thermal" and "electrical" might be better, but seem anachronistic (or as anachronistic as you can be in a fantasy setting).

Ghosts are already too damn difficult for physical-based classes. If they gain physical resistance, they should lose their extreme dodginess. Generally I'm not in favor of making one part of the game extra-difficult for a certain class or race.

Pickaxes are amusing weapons, to be sure. Pretty much my favorite in Dwarf Fortress's adventure mode. Co-mingling of slots in ToME is unprecedented, however, and I don't know how much there is to gain from having a fourth two-handed weapon variety.

[Sirrocco]

- Archmage seems to have been from a time when we had classes like tempests and cryomancers and pyromancers that were distinct from Archmages. We could just call them something a bit more generic - mage/magus/sorceror/wizard/whatever. There are plenty of generic names out there - and while I'd often prefer a cooler name, Archmages are a pretty generic class.

- It seems like you're talking about having the dungeons be a bit more strongly typed in general. I'd note that this would lead to either having the dungeons be a bit less interesting (because each dungeon would have fewer types) or having to put in a lot of effort (making more monster types to fill up the emptied slots in the dungeons). Also, if we go with option B, we're likely making the alchemist quests that much harder. I don't have any strong opinions here - flavorful dungeons are flavorful, and that's not a bad thing, but these are drawbacks that I notice

- Zot and Scorch damage?

- Having weird pickaxe rules would also do odd and unfortunate things to grapplers.

- I got nuthin'

[Grillkick]

I'm only going to address number one- I think he has a great point here. Saying that someone has been training in Angolwen for years and is sent out into the world calling themselves "Archmage" is ridiculous when all that entails is have a weak-ass bolt of flame, a bit of low damage lightning, and possibly the ability to phase a few spaces over.
So! This gave me a great idea. At differing levels, one would have his class name change at certain levels to reflect their power and progress. One would start as "Mage" at level one, then "Wizard/Warlock" at level 15, and "Archmage" at level 30. At level 45 we could have a final title such as "Master Archmage" which would go along *perfectly* with Darkgod's plans to introduce class-specific bonus abilities at level 45! This would also follow with the other classes- for example Marauder starts as "Thug" at level 1, then "Reaver" at level 15, "Marauder" at 30, and "Reaper/Mauler" at 45. This would be announced in popup texts just like the SVN version announces quests.
We would still refer to the classes by their level 30(current) names.

How does everyone feel about this?

[Guevara-chan]

[*][/b] Quick new note: completely against proposed name for new class – “psionic…psion” ? How about 'psychotrooper', for example ?
[*][/b] ALSO: could in-game merchant be reworked to only posess limited money pool and commodity interest range, yet buy your stuf for more-or-less fair price ? Since right now transmogring wins without single strive...
[*][/b] And, while we talking 'bout shops - could there be a "pet-" one ? Since even uncontollable companion still better than none at all...

Now, few more things:

What's the difference between light and fire damage

Light seems like UV radiation source for me, yet if so – why it works on undeads and constructs ? “Positive” and “Negative”, while being a little D&Dsh, still makes a lot more sense.

some classes (mostly melee) pretty much deal ONLY physical damage, and they have a hard enough time as it is

Easy there: magic weapons – ghostbusting should require some proper outfit. Some incorporeal (burned paper sword ?) blades would be even more awesome, yet I couldn’t stretch my hopes so far.

I've always thought it would be nice for every non-undead monster in Dreadfell to be replaced with undead versions, either through a little script or by actually introducing some new monsters. I don't know how appropriate undead dragons would be, since there are very, very few in ToME. It would also be a lot of work both on the technical and artistic side.

Actually… I believe, that making undead after into permanent state instead of base race could help. Graphically, it could be represented as Tactics Ogre-esque recoloring (yes, dark grayish tint from PSP remake).

"Thermal" and "electrical" might be better

“Thermal” is basically applicable for both heat and cold damage. Yet, it would actually be interesting experiment to merge them into composite meta-type, like acidic and alkaline already are in most games.

I don't know how much there is to gain from having a fourth two-handed weapon variety.

Mandatory armor-ignoring come into mind, also: bonus damage against stony structures (like golems). Btw, I believe that axes should be enough and even better to destroy a tree/treeant.

Having weird pickaxe rules would also do odd and unfortunate things to grapplers.

Nice catch. Now, there are 2 variants of resolving those problems:
1) Addition of “inhibit warpicking” option for tool slot eqipment.
2) Ability to wield everything as weapon, just like NetHack.
Second is more flexible (cockatrice corpse ftw), yet for some reason I doubt that we would ever get it.

How does everyone feel about this?

I second that: even in RL there are tiered titles for professions.

P.S. One more thing: could there be face equipment slot ? Masks, monocles, nose rings - sure goes there.

[lukep]

[*][/b] ALSO: could in-game merchant be reworked to only posess limited money pool and commodity interest range, yet buy your stuf for more-or-less fair price ? Since right now transmogring wins without single strive...

Having shops give better prices than the chest would simply serve to increase tedium, as players remove items from the chest, put on +encumbrance and +str gear, run to each of the appropriate stores, sell the items, then run back to do the next level in the dungeon.

[*][/b] And, while we talking 'bout shops - could there be a "pet-" one ? Since even uncontollable companion still better than none at all...

That could be done. The only difficulty I see is that they would need to be balanced powerful enough to be useful, without making the game too easy. Also, in keeping with the rest of the game's design, each character would need to get a resurrection spell that is usable in the dungeon so that pets don't become the first consumable in the game.

re: damage type names. I like them the way they are. They fit with the fantasy theme of the game, and are concise. The naming convention is currently what the source of damage is, rather than what it does, otherwise exothermic/endothermic/dissolving would be good names for fire, cold, and acid (respectively).

EDIT: about axes being more powerful against plant type enemies. It would be very easy to do, but I'm not sure that I would want it. In fact, I lean the opposite direction, removing the very small differences between the three weapon types and merging them.

[Guevara-chan]

Having shops give better prices than the chest would simply serve to increase tedium, as players remove items from the chest, put on +encumbrance and +str gear, run to each of the appropriate stores, sell the items, then run back to do the next level in the dungeon.

Right, and what’s even more: I want you to take some note that mentioned algorithm at least oblige to do something for obtaining gold. Chest, on opposite side, is all about clicking outside inventory window. Shouldn’t it be logical to grant some reward for people doing things instead of careless relying on ancient relic ?

re: damage type names. I like them the way they are. They fit with the fantasy theme of the game, and are concise. The naming convention is currently what the source of damage is, rather than what it does, otherwise exothermic/endothermic/dissolving would be good names for fire, cold, and acid (respectively).

Hm, so "heat beam" rune mandatorily invokes flame on usage ? Thanks for clarification, if so.

In fact, I lean the opposite direction, removing the very small differences between the three weapon types and merging them.

Hm… It is what we got instead of separate skilltrees for each weapon those days ? May be some of gemini classes I already mentioned should undergo merging too, if so ?

[bricks]

I think crazy complex NetHack-style item/NPC/dungeon interactions are inappropriate for ToME.

[Grillkick]

Bricks, I agree except in cases of deeper NPC communication and enemies being able to pick up and uses items. Both of these features would add a great deal of immersion to the game. That being said, the crazy wield-anything, million different uses and interactions, kitchen sink approach of Nethack items...yeah, that needs to stay out of ToME.

[Guevara-chan]

Well, NetHack is NetHack, D&D is D&D. Not that I actually expect spells from “Arcane\Ice” to freeze water into walkable ice or something that clever. Just ability to use improvised weapons (like already mentioned pickaxes) would be, at one implementation or another, awesome enough.

P.S. Regarding enemies & items: I believe that every being should be treated equally by engine, and actually done stuff that while coding my own roguelike. Just to note.

[bricks]

Bricks, I agree except in cases of deeper NPC communication and enemies being able to pick up and uses items. Both of these features would add a great deal of immersion to the game.

I love simulation programming and these sorts of ideas. I wish it weren't the case, but I think both of these ideas actually have very few noticeable implications for ToME. Smarter AI would be nice, but sometimes AI is too smart - ever play Smart Kobold? Absolutely terrifying. Picking up and using items would do very little most of the time, since ToME's equipment model is based off giving lots of small bonuses like stats and better defenses. The situations where it would matter - say, an enemy picking up and using Gwai's Burninator - would simply result in frustrating and unpredictable deaths. The item-dropping and NPC inventory code would also need to be completely reworked, since NPCs don't have real inventories and they only drop equipped items in very specific circumstances (generally just artifacts). You'd also have to deal with the weirdness of having NPCs run around the level and pick up items the first few turns, which would require a bunch of pathfinding calls.

Edit: Have a working download link? I'd love to check that out.

[Guevara-chan]

Have a working download link? I'd love to check that out.

Let me doubt that: people behind Xors3D project already turned away from me (by removed access to their FTP, f.e.) and there unlikely anyone still having tany of public versions - it's all was too much time ago, even me lost nearly everything twice. Retained some concept art for/from multiverse that project was built around, though.

[Grillkick]

@ Bricks- Well damn. That was very well-reasoned, you've convinced me that this wouldn't be feasible.

On a side note, I'm definitely going to check out Smart Kobold!

[Guevara-chan]

That was very well-reasoned, you've convinced me that this wouldn't be feasible.

Just to note: he still does not convinced Thomas Biskup, who actually going to implement omnipresent inventories as one of key features for ADOM II... Just to note.