Staggerred Talent Progression

[edge2054]

An idea taken from this thread and shamelessly stolen from Grey.

The basic premise is to remove stat requirements from talents and stagger the progression out over 35 levels rather then the current 22.

I think this would be a good change because by the time the character hits level 22 they have no new talents to look forward too (which makes the game after level 22 less exciting then the game before it, at least for me) and because people meta-game stat requirements by hanging onto equipment enough that they're virtually meaningless past level 20 or so anyway (which isn't fun but is practically mandatory for some mutli-stat classes).

To accomplish this and keep some semblance of balance with the old stat requirement system we stagger new talents at every five levels rather then four and have advanced trees open up at level 20 instead of level 10. So at level 5 you get your second tier talents, level 10 your third, and 15 your fourth. At level 20 you get advanced trees, at 25 you get your advanced trees second tier talent, 30 the third, and at 35 your fourth. This gives the player 35 levels of opening up new talents every five levels rather then the 22 every four they currently have and will put the player at level 43 before they're able to max out the last talents that they've learned. This will also give the player the sense their character is making substantial growth over the majority of the game rather then the feeling that by the end of the game they're just 'filling in holes'.

There's some concerns of course for mid-game balance (Dreadfell and beyond) but I think the mid-game was doable before we had so many advanced talent trees and that in general the player is much more powerful now then it was then (much better artifacts and item egos, better quest rewards, status effects are less dangerous, etc.). So overall I think mid-game balance will be effected but it won't be so drastic as to make the mid-game impossible.

[lukep]

Where did you get the last talent point at level 43 from? By my count, it should be 39, unless you are also suggesting only letting players advance their talent level every other levelup. This could be an interesting change, as it would force players into diversifying their talents, at least a bit.

I like the suggestion for all of the combat talents, because they are balanced by playstyle and other requirements (weapon damage, spellpower, etc...) to be effective. I'm not so sure about talents like Imbue Item, as it is exactly as useful to a warrior as an archmage. One idea for them would be to split the talents into two categories, though that would add unnecessary (IMO) complexity.

[Grey]

Hmm, valid point about the escort reward trees. Don't want them to be too accessible... Though of course there's still the issue of equipment swapping making most of it trivial. However one thing to consider is keeping stat requirements on generic trees. Certainly the combat training tree requires stat reqs for Thick Skin and Armour Training.

I think changing the talent staggering to every 5 levels makes a lot of sense - it has better synergy with how you gain two class points at level 5. However putting off all the advanced talent trees to level 20 could be overkill. Perhaps there should be a range of trees at 0, 10 and 20? I'm definitely in favour of dragging out character building more so that it remains relevant for much longer in the game.

[Avianpilot]

I'm actually rather against the idea. My feeling from this is that your build will stagnate over the intermediate levels rather than progress. If I level up and can't put the talent points into the skills that I want, I'm just going to save them until I can. That just leads to me using the same talents for a few more levels until I can open those skills.

Also, I'm more in favor of keeping the talent progression like it is because of character survivability; having more options to deal with any given situation is just about always better than not. I like having all of my abilities earlier and can develop tactics around them. If they're locked until later I think it'd make the early game more uniform and boring -- there'd be one (or very few) 'true' way to play, since you don't have much in the way of options to try anything else and expect to live.

I guess what it really boils down to for me is options and tactics. Reducing the former leads to a stagnation of the latter. I've never had a problem with the stat requirements of talents, so if removing them would be balanced by the staggering of the talent progression then I'd rather not see them go.

[bricks]

Overall this sounds good. I just don't like the idea that my low-level characters have to wait even longer to get the second tier of talents.

@Thick Skin and Armour Training: Both of these still require investment in the appropriate stat (Con/Str) to maximize their value. (Shielding works really well with Thick Skin, as Edge pointed out elsewhere. Applying damage reduction before damage shields seems contrary to logic, but changing this might nerf shields too much.) The tremendous value of some escort talents, like Imbue Item, strikes me more as a consequence of poor in-class options for category/generic points. Generic points are already spread so thin, so there is at least some intrinsic trade-off. Stone Alchemy is also a really class-specific generic tree, compared to some of the other escort rewards.

[edge2054]

Where did you get the last talent point at level 43 from? By my count, it should be 39, unless you are also suggesting only letting players advance their talent level every other levelup. This could be an interesting change, as it would force players into diversifying their talents, at least a bit.

I got that number from making this post right before bed.

As to what Grey said, the problem with making a second tier of advanced talents is one of ideas. Many classes don't even have advanced trees yet.

I realize putting off advanced trees till level 20 may feel off to many of us but I want you guys to ask yourselves rather or not that's a gut reaction because we're so used to the current system. I hear a lot of people talk in chat about how they get bored with characters before they even reach the halfway point of the game. I hear a lot of people in IRC say they feel the same way. Is playing through the last 50% of the game just collecting loot and filling in holes in your spec honestly as fun as the first half where you're constantly looking forward to new talents?

As to making the character to weak Avianpilot, the west has more leveling and gear available then it ever has before and situations that are death traps get toned down every beta. I think the west is perfectly survivable by a character without advanced talent trees.

[Frumple]

I'd love ditching stat reqs, but the lengthened investment time concerns me, somewhat.

This is less to do with lack of talent access necessary for survival, and more to do with the fact that it'd cause me to just sit on talent points waiting for something I'm interested to open up -- which is something I don't like to do even in the current system. Being able to fully invest every level makes me feel like I'm being efficient, heh, and I run into the level limits with that a lot, already.

That, and having the Level Up! line in the status bar staring at me while I'm killing things is violently annoying

[Grey]

Overall this sounds good. I just don't like the idea that my low-level characters have to wait even longer to get the second tier of talents.

I don't think that would be a big issue as it's only the difference in level 4 and 5. Often I receive those both at once from Prox.

What some have said about having to hold onto points for a worthy investment is a valid point though. I do it myself already at times and it's kinda annoying having that Levelup! indicator already there.

[bricks]

Yeah, Grey, you are right. Also agree with the level indicator thing, I'd like a way to clear it or have it automatically disappear once you've checked the level-up window once. An indicator could remain somewhere, perhaps on the character sheet.

[Avianpilot]

What some have said about having to hold onto points for a worthy investment is a valid point though. I do it myself already at times and it's kinda annoying having that Levelup! indicator already there.

Reanalyzing it a bit, I think that that's my biggest concern with the proposal. Right now I too hold onto points a bit for the early levels, but that's a choice based on the build I want to put together. I wouldn't want that to become the default though.

[Zonk]

Having to hold points is annoying, but respec makes it something that can happen less often(just spend the points in not-so-good stuff, then respec them later).

[Aquillion]

I explained why I dislike this idea in the other thread, and my reasoning is there. Basically:

1. Most players never reach the endgame. I think it's important that everyone get a chance to experiment with a complete build and all important talents, without having to be dedicated enough to reach really high levels.

2. It's important to give players enough time to play around with their complete build, too. I think dividing the game in half, with half of it putting your build together and the other half just refining it, is actually for the best.

3. I like the fact that the way you approach the game and your character changes as the game progresses, rather than just constantly putting new points into the latest skills like in so many Diablo-clones. Personally, I feel that capping out new skills by level 24 is actually one of ToME's better features -- I usually hate skill-point systems; but I find ToME's more interesting precisely because it eventually shifts into filling out gaps rather than just buying new stuff constantly. I like being able to go back and fill out gaps without feeling that I'm sacrificing new advancement.

[Sirrocco]

I find myself generally opposed to the idea for emotionally driven reasons that I could rationalize into arguments but choose to acknowledge for what they are. I tend to think that skills should be based on non-gear stats, as the idea of having leveling gear *is* a bit silly. I'm a bit perplexed by the idea that MSD (multi-stat-dependent) classes would have real problems qualifying for their skills. Perhaps an example could be provided of such a class, and where it would have problems? I can't offhand think of any classes that have skill trees that cover more than three stats (most only cover one or two), and that should be doable even without gear-swapping as long as you're willing to let your con and/or will slip. Once we've done that, we can accept that the need to let con and/or will slip is an inherent disadvantage that these classes have, and balance around it.

[tiger_eye]

Two parts to your suggestion: (1) remove the stat dependencies for talents, and (2) make talents available at a slower pace. Let me discuss (2) first.

I had proposed a similar idea to DarkGod a while ago, and I think yufra suggested something similar before that. DarkGod's reply was that spreading talents out like that remove options and choices for players. I think he has a point. This would force some classes to be built more similarly as they progress. As it is now, you can choose to specialize a character relatively early.

The reason I recommended staggered talent progression in the first place (and I think the reason edge2054 suggested it), is that building some characters becomes less interesting during the second half of the game. All levels of all talents are available by clvl 26 (except for a couple extra-high level trees). This means that by clvl 26, a character can have fully invested in the few most important talents, and the rest of the game is merely "filling in the gaps". The end of the game can feel like a grind at times, and one reason is because the character doesn't change very much.

So, here is a moderate suggestion: how about making high tier talents available at a slower pace? To be honest, when I started playing ToME, this is how I thought they would behave.

This diagram shows the current talent availability w.r.t. character level:

Code: Select all

Level   10        20        30        40
1234567890123456789012345678901234567890
Basic    |         |         |         |
****     |         |         |         |
   ***** |         |         |         |
       *****       |         |         |
         | *****   |         |         |
Advanced |         |         |         |
         *****     |         |         |
         |   ***** |         |         |
         |       *****       |         |
         |         | *****   |         |

And my suggestion is to do something like this:

Code: Select all

Level   10        20        30        40
1234567890123456789012345678901234567890
Basic    |         |         |         |
****     |         |         |         |
   ***** |         |         |         |
       *****       |         |         |
         | * * * * *         |         |
Advanced |         |         |         |
         *****     |         |         |
         |   ***** |         |         |
         |       * * * * *   |         |
         |         | *  *  * |*  *     | 

Regarding (1), removing the stat dependencies for talents, I support having stat dependencies, but I don't think bonuses from gear should apply.

[Sradac]

where did you get we have access to all talents at level 22 from? I dont know about you but I look forward to that cat point at 30, I dont know of any characters that can unlock all talents at 22.

But I agree about the stat thing, or at least change it. You can dump on a bunch of stat gear when you go to level up to temporarily meet the requirements then take that gear off. That seems a bit silly.