reduce most impairing effects duration and remove immunity

[marvalis]

There are currently a number of effects in the game that are very strong when they are not resisted, and when they last multiple turns:
* flameshock (paralyze should be removed completely)
* freeze
* blind
* immobilize (pin)
* confusion
* disarm

They make the player stack resistance or invulnerability. Once you have 100% blindness immunity, that means you have no more problems with blind. The question then becomes: what is the point of freeze and blind if the player can resist them with ease? Freeze and blind effects should be used to make certain encounters more challenging, and should be used sparingly.

If we reduce all blind, confusion and freeze effects to 1 turn, then we can remove the immunity to these effects (I would suggest also remove stun immunity and reduce stun to 3 turns max). It would also mean that more skills can apply these effects without being overpowered (a 1 turn freeze is still nice to have, and maybe there can be more blinding powers). All skills with a secondary freeze effect would have a 1 turn freeze, and skills with only a freeze effect but no other effects or damage could have a 2-3 turn freeze assuming these skills consume a turn to use. Similarly, an archer skill that only immobilizes but does no damage could last 2-3 turns. A disarm skill that does not do damage, for example, could last 2-3 turns.

Similarly, the slinger skill 'pin to the ground' is devastating for anyone who does not have a way to mitigate the effects. This has been rightfully complained about a lot. Reducing the effect to 1 turn, and removing resistance/immunity would turn pin to the ground into a useful and balanced skill.

Removing these various immunities and resistances will have the additional benefit of reducing gear complexity. There are currently to many stats on gear.

The game should become harder as you progress, and not easier once you have the right gear for immunity.

/edit I forgot to mention this, but knockback also belongs here unless it was recently rebalanced. Knockback should only be a few squares and not >10 squares or whatever it used to be on some skills.

[bricks]

That would change the game.. a lot. I'd actually like to see some randomness in status effects, such as checking saves every turn for canceling (especially if you just stood still that turn). Checking against saves could respect duration (i.e. a 30 turn blind effect would be twice as hard to clear as a 15 turn blind effect). I believe this is the best possible way to handle status effects, since it makes them effective in all situations while still encouraging the player to find ways to mitigate status effects. I don't think its wrong for a player's build to focus on status effects, though certain design considerations can really mess with that (i.e; rampant stun/freeze resistance, disease immunity, etc.).

I do, in general, dislike the status effect immunities. I find myself building my characters so I don't have to stack immunity gear. Saves are more opaque but also more holistic. The problem with all of these ideas is changing the game to fix them, since status effect stuff is spread out everywhere.

One quick thing that has been bothering me: stun/freeze is obviously a very silly combo, though I know it persists for historic reasons. Can we just change freeze effects to check against cold resistance? Since dragons were changed to have 50% stun/freeze immunity, I've seen cold drake hatchlings frozen solid, which really shouldn't happen.

[Grey]

I'd prefer to see it so that resistance reduces the duration of the effect. A 50% resistance would half the duration of the effect. That way there's less of a feel of needing to get to 100%. It was quite nice when stun had this effect on, and it would be nice for all resistances to be the same.

[marvalis]

Suppose you are being attack by only two monsters.
These guys can do 300 dmg per turn. You have 1.2k HP.

One of them uses a 6 turn freeze, and you have no resistance or immunity

turn 1: you are frozen for 6 turns, take 300 damage (hp=900)
turn 2: you take 600 damage and heal 200 from your infusion (hp=500)
turn 3: you take 600 damage and die

Now suppose you have a 50% resistance and the freeze lasts 'only' 3 turns:

turn 1: you are frozen for 3 turns and take 300 damage (hp=900)
turn 2: you take 600 damage and heal 200 (hp=500)
turn 3: you take 600 damage and die

Suppose you have 100% resistance to freeze:

turn 1: you are hit for 300 (hp=900)
turn 2: you kill the first monster and take 300 damage, heal 200 (hp=800)
turn 3: you attack the second monster and take 300 damage, heal 200 (hp=800)
turn 4: you kill the second monster and heal 200 (hp=1000)

Now suppose freeze only lasts one turn:

turn 1: you are frozen for one turn and take 300 damage (hp=900)
turn 2: you use your regeneration infusion while frozen, take 600 damage and heal 200 (hp=500)
turn 3: you can move again and hide behind a wall, you heal 200 (hp=700)
turn 3: you move one square back, you heal 200, the enemy moves in line of sight (hp=900)
turn 4: you attack and kill one monster, you take 300 damage and are frozen again for one turn, you heal 200 (hp=800)
turn 5: you are frozen and cannot do anything useful right now, you take 300 damage and heal 200 (hp=700)
turn 6: you can move again, you attack and take 300 damage (hp=300)
turn 7: you kill the second monster

Clearly, the last combat encounter was much more interesting. Both monsters used a one-turn freeze.

[marvalis]

there are currently two zones that use blind a lot:
* The sandworm lair
* Briagh lair

These zone are currently not balanced. Go to Briagh's lair without blind immunity and you will see what I mean. This is symptomatic for the current system.
The problem with these blinds is that they effectively reduce the player's performance to the point where anything more than one turn cannot be justified.
A 6-turn blind on a boss level means possible death. Several multi-turn blinds in a row means certain death.

Saying that you cannot complete this zone without the required equipment is IMHO bad design. Success of the player in these zones should depend on the player's talents primarily and only to a minor extend should depend on the equipment. In other words, the skill of the player should come first (both the one behind the keyboard and the @). Are we going to give each and every class a skill to resist blind, a skill to resist freeze, etc. ? I don't think that would be a good idea, it would be unnecessary complex.

Now suppose we say that you can get up to 50% resistance. Then a player without the 'right' equipment would get a 4-turn freeze while the player with the 'right' equipment gets a 2 turn freeze. Hardly sounds fair, and most certainly does not depend on the player's skill.

The only solution, other than giving players the option to gain 100% resist, is to simple reduce the duration of these effects, and decide carefully what monsters should use these skills and when they should use it.

If high level players cannot be blinded or frozen, then where is the fun?

[edge2054]

The save system is being overhauled to be a lot less binary which will be a huge change. It didn't make it into this current beta because I think Darkgod wanted a nice clean release for people to play with as few bugs as possible.

Anyway, unless something changes between now and b35, saves will function more like armor against negative effects. If you get hit with a power 100 timed effect (say from a spell caster with 100 spellpower) and you have 150 save you'll reduce the duration of that timed effect by 5 turns (note that timed effects can't go above their normal duration, so getting hit with the 100 power timed effect when you have zero save would simply leave the duration as it is).

So anyway, something like this is in the works (or something more like what bricks suggested anyway).

[marvalis]

(100-150)/10 = -5?

Or where did you get that 5 turn reduction from?

This will probably lead to a similar arms race like we have seen with invisibility, and balancing it will mean manually editing a bunch of files and numbers.

I would rather have seen a system where normal/elite/boss status determines the duration of some of these effects (for example, freeze a normal monster for 4 turns, an elite for 2 turns, and a boss for 1 turn). That would mean we can easily make all non-elite monsters easier, regardless of their level and independent on their saves. For example, in beta 42 we decide that normal monsters should be less resistant to freeze, are you going to manually edit the saves in every monster file? Really? Instead you could be editing one line of code that takes input from the talents and creates output based on elite status to the timed effects.

Why make an extensive save system for a very narrow range of application? Say a 1-4 turn freeze. (I hope you are not suggesting freeze or even blind should last more than 5 turns).
On top of that, are you going to invest a lot of coding time in an obsure system of saves that only a few people (you DG and a few other coders) know the actual meaning of? Most new players will have no clue what saves do. Even if they did, they will not realise how important they are. Some of these saves will be based on certain stats, giving unfair advantages and disadvantages to certain classes, making the game even harder to balance (and balance is one of the big issues that need to be ironed out). On top of that, some classes already have to many stats that they must increase (arcane blades iirc?). This will only make this problem harder.

You know, dungeons and dragons has a save system: A static number that you roll against a d20.
For example, reflex 14. The enemy does an attack and rolls 6+4 against reflex. The attack misses.
When you are slowed (save ends) then you roll a d20 at the end of your turn: 10 or more= success and you are no longer slowed.
A static system like this is much, much easier to balance than a system based on spell-power and saves that can be anywhere between 1 and 160.
You just give each race and class a save modifier (archmage get +4 mental save or whatever, 10 is the base).

But off-course these are just idea's since I am not doing the actual coding.

[bricks]

100 power, not 100 turns. I don't think saves are that confusing, especially if the system Edge mentioned goes through. They are more or less a direct counter to the associated "power" (physical/spell/mental). I also don't think broad stat distributions will hurt too terribly, it just means that classes like Arcane Blades have moderate survivability against both physical and spell effects (which makes sense). Sounds like a good change to me, especially if a little randomness was tossed in.

In regards to "arms race" commnet; well, yeah. It is an RPG.

[Aquillion]

Suggestion in the line of the stun/freeze issue above:

Most status attacks have both an element and an effect associated from them. Allow them to be resisted with either. So, Flameshock gives you one roll to resist based on your fire resistance, and one roll based on your stun/freeze immunity.

Or, instead, decrease duration based on the elemental resistance, with immunity working the way it does now. So something with Cold resistance of 50% is only frozen for half as long as something with 0%, and monsters with 100% can't be frozen at all.

Effects with no obvious element should be assigned to physical, arcane, or nature based on their power source (though some status ailments, like Freezing or Poison or Disease, could have a different default element instead.)

[edge2054]

(100-150)/10 = -5?

Yes something like that. As to it being obscure the saving throw tooltips will be updated and this system is much less obscure and easy to understand then the current one (which is hit vs. saving throws for application and then nothing beyond that). Immunities will be a binary hit roll like they are now and saves will reduce the duration of effects (no hit roll).

This will be a nice change for players in general. Right now if your opponent saves against your effect it doesn't take affect at all. Also monsters tend to have both lower saving throws and lower spellpower or attack then the player so again this favors the player.

And frankly marvalis this is less rebalancing then your suggestion. Many classes abilties and themes revolve around the idea of CC. Putting all CC durations to 1 would take a ton of rebalancing, some classes would need more CC, other classes would lose their niche entirely and need more damage. Duration 1 CC is an invitation for homogenization and frankly sounds really lame from a class design perspective.

[marvalis]

Yes obviously all talents will have to be changed *one time* once my suggestion is implemented. Hopefully, after the change, it will be possible to balance the game (for all future versions :3).

You could also look at it like this: More talents can have secondary effects, and maybe there can be more talents that do not consume a turn to use.
Let us look at freeze for example:

Code: Select all

Condenses ambient water on a target, freezing it for %d turns and damaging it for %0.2f.
		The damage will increase with the Magic stat]]):format(2+math.ceil(self:getTalentLevelRaw(t)), damDesc(self, DamageType.COLD, damage))

(Btw, why is there math.ceil on talent level raw?)

Right now this is your primary freeze effect, and only secondary damage effect. Most of your other similar spells become a beam at some point.
This is backwards.
Now imagine freeze would last one turn on bosses and elites, but two turns on non-elites. Imagine that freeze would be a primary damage, and secondary freeze talent that becomes a beam at level 3?
Now you can freeze multiple monsters in a row.

Much more interesting isn't it?

More talents can now have secondary effects since these effects are much more balanced. Ice shards, for example, can get a secondary freeze effect.
Ice storm could get a chance for a 1 turn freeze and a chance for a 1 turn immobilize (instead of only freeze).
Illuminate, you know the shitty skill that nobody uses, could be turned into an AOE blast that does light damage and causes a 1 turn blind effect (primary: damage, secondary:blind, tertiary effect: lights up the room).

Fire should be primary: damage, and secondary: damage over time (Damn you flameshock, you should be called iceshock).

Phantasm could be reworked to be more active:
Blur sight can be turned in a targeted AOE confusion (3 turns since this talent does not do damage)
Phantasmal shield can be turned into a decoy (like the rogue trap, but invulnerable) that damages it's attacker

In addition to crowd control, movement should be used in some form or another by all classes (controlled phase door could be improved for example).

Instead of freezing something for 7 turns, and burning it to death while the ice does note even melt, combat will look like this:
turn 1: You damage and also freeze for one turn
2: The monster is frozen and you throw an arcane beam on it.
3: The monster takes one step towards you
4: you use a level 1 ice shards to freeze it again
5: You pummel the monster with some fire attacks
6: The monster recovers from the freeze and moves again. It should be long dead now so whatever.

With multiple monsters you should be using PbAOE attacks that immobilize (earth), blind (phantasm), confuse (phantasm) and freeze (water-ice). while teleporting all over the place.

[marvalis]

Earth can be reworked too so it is more active:

Strike can be a level 1 talent that becomes a cone at level 3.
Stone skin can be removed (since when are mages tanking?) and replaced with grasping earth, a point-blank AOE attack that does primary damage and secondary immobilize. Dig can be replaced with sand blast, a targeted AOE with a primary damage effect and secondary blind effect (blind only lasting one turn, as suggested in my first post). Stone wall can be kept.

Now the player will have to make an actual choice: Do I got for water, ice and earth for more control, or do I take the fire talents first for more damage? There is a significant trade-off.

Disruption shield, a skill that needs balancing anyway, can be made more active by turning it into a targeted invisible 'trap' (a shield) that causes knocks back when walked over.

Plenty of control option no? Sounds better than having a shield that blows up in your face doesn't it?

[edge2054]

Instead of freezing something for 7 turns, and burning it to death while the ice does note even melt, combat will look like this:
turn 1: You damage and also freeze for one turn
2: The monster is frozen and you throw an arcane beam on it.
3: The monster takes one step towards you
4: you use a level 1 ice shards to freeze it again
5: You pummel the monster with some fire attacks
6: The monster recovers from the freeze and moves again. It should be long dead now so whatever.

With multiple monsters you should be using PbAOE attacks that immobilize (earth), blind (phantasm), confuse (phantasm) and freeze (water-ice). while teleporting all over the place.

This was pretty much my point with how hard this is going to be to balance. You're looking at it purely from a player perspective and saying, lets reduce CC durations to 1 so the player doesn't get screwed over so much and here's how it'll look for the player if we make this change when he uses his spells (because we'll buff a bunch of talents to now include CC so the player can still crowd control).

How about from the other side of the coin?

1. Stunlock the random unique casts Illimunate, blinding you for one turn, you pop wild infusion and regen infusion to weather the coming battle. (sure it's dumb to clear a 1 turn blindness with wild infusion but you might not be expecting what's to come).
2. Stunlock the random unique casts Ice Storm, freezing you in place for 1 turn. You do nothing.
3. Stunlock the random unique casts Flameshock, you're now paralyzed for 1 turn and do nothing.
4. Stunlock the random unique hits you with Shock the next turn and dazes you for 1 turn. Again you do nothing.
5. Stunlock the random unique freezes you for one turn, you do nothing.
6. The player recovers from blind but by now he's probably long since dead from Ice Storm and Flameshock damage.

This can all happen now even with your 1 turn durations. I didn't use a single 'new' CC effect and I stuck 100% to mage spells (random uniques can pull talents from multiple classes). Imagine how much fun it would be if crowd control gets added to half the damage talents in the game.

[marvalis]

Good point. As a rule of thumb, each monster should only get one CC talent, and each encounter should probably only have two CC skills. You just have to take this into account when designing monsters and encounters.

Your post also makes it very clear why we should put emphases on mobility for archmages instead of crowd control.

/edit this is also the reason why icestorm should not be a skill that lasts multiple turns. It should be a point-blank AOE attack that only freezes *once*.

[marvalis]

Talking about encounters, let me explain what I mean:
Currently, the game generates a map and then randomly puts monsters on that map (I don't know the actual code but it is something like this).

I was thinking this could be improved by placing monsters on the map in 'encounters'. An encounter is a group of monsters and always takes place a room. The game generates a map, looks where it can place encounters (certain rooms etc.) and then generated the encounters and places them on the map. For example, one encounter is made up by a skeleton mage, an elite skeleton fighter, and a regular skeleton fighter. These are places in a (closed) room.

A number of things have to be taken into account:

The difficulty of the encounter: Each dungeon should have some easier and some harder encounters randomly distributed.

The group composition: Some monsters are more powerful than others. In a group composed of 3 enemies there could be one elite. Any group of 3 should usually have at most 1 ranged class like archer or mage. A typical list of encounters would be like this:

Encounter 1: Skeleton warrior, skeleton warrior, skeleton warrior
Encounter 2: skeleton warrior (an easy encounter)
Encounter 3: Skeleton mage + elite warrior
Encounter 4: Skeleton archer, skeleton warrior
Encounter 5: Elite skeleton warrior, elite skeleton warrior (a harder encounter with two elites)

These are all randomly generated (according to whatever rules the map designer implemented). Then the game puts some random monsters in the hallways.

By carefully designing the encounters, the maps designers can fine-tune the group composition and difficulty of the map.

Remember those screenshot where you enter a new level in the tower and the room is full with monsters? That will never happen again with encounters. You will never have a room filled with master vampires, but you can still place dangerous elites on the map knowing they will not all be in the same room! By designing encounters you can prevent having to much crowd control in any one group.

If at the end game fight, where you fight the two wizards, the wizard uses his blind attack and the player is blinded but he can still win the encounter, then I think we succeeded in balancing blind effects. If it turns out the player is immune to blind then we failed to keep the usefulness of blind (what is the - point of giving the final boss a kick-ass blind talent that does not blind 99% of the characters he is fighting?).

If a player enters a new zone he has never been before (lets say, Briagh's lair) and get killed simply because he does not have the right item equipped no matter what his skills are, while it is not *absolutely* clear that he needs that equipment (it is pretty obvious you need water breathing to go into an underwater cave), then we have _failed_ at making the game balanced.

Now, let suppose we add saves to this story. You either have to much saves (you can never be blinded), not enough (you suffer from 6 turn blinds) or just right (whatever that is for you). If you are to low level (lower stats, or bad equipment) then you suffer from overpowered blind effects and you get pounded into the ground. Do we get pleasure from curb-stomping low level players? Maybe if we can see their faces when they curse at the game we would, but we sadly can't. Whether you are a level 3, or level 3000, a 4 turn blind is a 4 turn blind. The fact that lower level players with lower saves get blinded for longer is not good design. The game should be easier at start, and gradually become harder until you end with the hardest encounter of them all: The final boss.