Now, there has been a lot of talk as to whether the rogue is underpowered or not, and a lot of work has gone toward them in the form of improved traps and artefact daggers, of late. What they certainly are is a uniquely alluring class, with many gameplay effects peculiar to them such as Stealth and trap-laying.
There is too much for myself alone to go through at length, so I invite any who have feelings about this to join in and speak for themselves. To dispense with the preamble, then, let us with the aid of a few of my field notes peer back into another time and place, to view ideas as they jump freshly-formed out of the heads that thought them:
Stamina
What set most of this discussion off was my moaning about low-level rogues after trying them in the Arena:
My esteemed interlocutor, drquicksilver, does not share the vehemency of my views, but concedes:<Nagyhal> drquicksilver: Rogues run out of stamina completely when faced with excessive challenge, at which point it is not the player's ability to manage cooldowns, tactical positioning and a complicated but subtle resource system that dictate the outcome of a combat, but instead the cruel denial of the game for the player to do anything but run away like a frightened woodlouse.
<Nagyhal> drquicksilvers: Players should be, if not rewarded, then at least respected for taking on such challenging fights, or at least be given the option to play a slower, more resource-grinding technique for the duration that they do so.
Now that I'm a little calmer, I can accept the way it is. I can accept the design intention that Combat Veteran is a talent tree for experienced warriors, and not the alley rogue that scuttles out into adventure with two kitchen knives and a vengeance. You can play your battle-ready laster, or your frail, hit-from-the-shadows-and-run type cutter. There's always the option, though, that:<drquicksilver> certainly it's a bit unusual for a class not to have starting access to good regen on its primary resource
<drquicksilver> and most other classes start with access to resourc-regen talents where appropriate
<drquicksilver> the mana classes start with a manasurge rune
<drquicksilver> the equilibrium classes get meditate
Why lock lethality? Answers in the next few sections. So much has been gone over on the topic of stamina that it demands another thread, which I'll make in a short while.<Reenen> suggestions is: Lock lethality (or at least remove the stat point there) unlock combat veteran(t) and unlock field control
<Nagyhal> Reenen: I'm of the opinion this would demand the adding of more unlockable trees! This might not be a terrible thing, with other 'iconic' classes like the Fighter and the Archmage having masses of them.
Lethality
Strength Builds<FinalMaster> Lethality should be right out changed
<Nagyhal> Lethality... increases your crit chance, and grants increasing stamina upon killing an enemy </trollface>
<Reenen> i like shadowstrike
<Reenen> and would like synergies
<tiger_eye> yup. lethality should increase critical hit damage multiplier, too
<FinalMaster> FM Proposition 1.2 for New Lethality - Cunning based passive - Initial Effect Increase crit damage mod by x% ; Secondary Effect [Triggered] when you kill an npc, you gain y Accuracy for z [short duration] turns
<FinalMaster> Classes do NOT start with a point in New Lethality
<FinalMaster> tiger_eye, yes, that. It should just replace Lethality as it's effect
<tiger_eye> that seems awfully similar to Deadly Strikes, though. to me, lethality suggests you have a higher chance on killing something, not getting a bonus after killing something. So, why not just
<tiger_eye> my idea for lethality is to increase the critical damage multiplier
<tiger_eye> FinalMaster's idea is to increase accuracy if you kill something
<Nagyhal> tiger_eye: Crit damage modifier alone would be much better, but I think FM's idea would add much needed cool factor. Crits could get crazy good, with this, but that's not the talent's problem alone...
<Nagyhal> My interpretation of that was that you get increased accuracy on your next strike.
<edge2054> I think crit damage multiplier could work.
<FinalMaster> That way, once you become lethal, you can continue to be lethal if you meet the requirement [killing]. Deadly strikes works similarly, but not using the same trigger. New Leathality requires a kill, deadly strikes is a tac on.
<edge2054> But it could get overpowered too. That stealth talent is already increased damage multiplier and it's a guaranteed crit.
...
<FinalMaster> What if it were +physical penetration instead?
<FinalMaster> That is atleast useful
<edge2054> critical power is useful
<FinalMaster> It is, but it's also getting to be too common
<tiger_eye> too common? there are no talents that currently boost it, is there?
<Nagyhal> That would be pretty awesome, but... I thought phys resistance is generally for things that don't have typical 'weak spots', stabbable anatomies. Great constructs of bone and the like.
<edge2054> If rogues need physical penetration talk DG into giving them the tactical tree.
...
<Nagyhal> yeah. Would the rest of you consider raising Lethality's talent level, even if it gave you rather little crit damage increase? i.e. 10%-15%?
<edge2054> I would Nag
<edge2054> Especially on a shadow blade or non-trap rogue.
<Reenen> I would be happy with 5-10% per level
<tiger_eye> yeah, 5-10% per level would be nice
<drquicksilver> Reenen: I'd kind of like rogues to explicitly have a strength build as well as a cunning build
<drquicksilver> Reenen: and only get lethality in the cunning build
Or dare I say, a Ruffian subclass? We've had a lot of talk about whether strength's not affecting weapon damage for rogues makes sense or not. I rather feel this would be bonkers and doesn't need to be thought about in a hurry, but:<Nagyhal> Some of us have expressed a wish to see a quirky Strength build possible for rogues. Maybe I should just try it and not raise Knife Mastery? But would anyone seriously accept, say, a Technique / Brutish Blows talent tree?
Shadow Strike<tiger_eye> rt. regarding daggers, why not just make the dammod [ 0.6*dex, 0.25*str, 0.25*cun ]
<Nagyhal> Going off what FM said and what tiger_eye suggested for daggers, Lethality could potentially make str input -> cun input at a grade.
Whispers begin anew. This is something we're just currently discussing in the chat channel.
The Rest<edge2054> tiger_eye, shadow strike was built before critical_power was added to the game. It's possibly an oversight.
<tiger_eye> good to know, edge2054. right now, the +71% critical damage I get from my equipment is pretty much useless to me, and there was no way to know this except for looking closely at the damage output or diving into the code
<drquicksilver> I think critical strike and shadowstrike should combine in some way
That's all I can collate for the moment. For anyone who feels they have been misquoted or their ideas misrepresented, I shall make efforts to change that! People have been pestering me to get this thread under way so that they can add to it, so fire away, is what I say!
) are vehemently opposed to changing the daggers working off cunning for rogues and shadowblades thing and thus opposed to locking lethality at the start. That said I do believe the talent and ultimately that tree could use some help.
". Reenen, "murderspree 4th level, about 35 cooldown? with each kill it goes down 1?"
.
. Thematically, though, I think it makes more sense for a stealthy character to move slower, not faster, because they are moving more slowly so as to not get noticed. For an idea like this to work, I wouldn't make it passive. It's intended purpose would be to allow for a hasty retreat. I would have this as an activated talent similar to Lightning Speed and not allow attacking or using other talents while active. Furthermore, perhaps it could decrease Accuracy, Damage, and APR for a few turns even after the speed bonus is finished. This would discourage the talent from being used offensively, and the rational would be that the character is winded and tired. All of this still probably isn't necessary, though, as one can simply use a movement infusion.