Anorithil tweaks

[Grey]

Some suggestions of changes to Anorithil class:

1. Make Jumpgate top tier talent if it's not going to be amended
2. Reduce damage of Shadowblast by about 10-20% and reduce the max duration by 1 or 2
3. Reduce effect of Hymn of Perseverance by about 30% (so it caps at around 55-60, rather than 85)
4. Change Hymn of Moonlight to only drain Negative energy when it fires a bolt (like Corona)
5. Make Circle of Blazing Light and Twilight Surge unusable whilst Darkest Light is active (otherwise they can be abused)
6. Change Darkest Light energy transfer to scale from 4 down to 2 rather than 5 down to 1
7. Make Chant of Light increase lite on char
8. Make Bathe in Light light up the affected tiles
9. Swap Sun Flare and Sunburst around in talent tree (Sun Flare is much better)

Some of these affect Sun Pallies as well, of course, but not as much.

There was some discussion in another thread about not making Neg/Pos energy naturally decrease. This might be nice, since at the moment the effect just makes you cast a few searing lights whilst exploring, and doesn't affect battle itself. However perhaps something that would be interesting in addition to this is making the maxes affect skill usage. ie. You can't cast Searing Light if you are near the maximum of your Positive bar, nor Twilight Surge if near the Negative maximum. This means there's an extra thing to consider when balancing the resources, and reduces the archmage style of cycling through the spells going bam bam bam. It would also stop one maxing out the light bar constantly, since it restricts your ability to use light-based spells.

Again, this mechanic would affect Sun Paladins too. However it's simply replacing one restriction (resource decay) with another restriction (strict resource maximum). The latter I think is more interesting.

[shwqa]

Huh I never thought Anorithil was overpowered even when Shadowblast did its damage every turn (i.e. My level 50's shadowblast did 300 a turn). I would even go as far to say that many of their moves are underpowered. I would say just leave the class alone, it is a lot of fun and can beat the game (which can't be said for many classes right now).

[edge2054]

Jumpgate is being amended.

I like most of these ideas and if Darkgod doesn't mind I'll make some adjustments when I'm not busy working on something else.

[Canderel]

Regarding Hymn of Perseverance: It is a escort quest reward... So nerfing it should be considered carefully.

Perhaps let is start slightly higher, and stop sooner (ie. less scaling on magic, and more raw per point advantage).

[Grey]

Even if reduced it's still a fantastic escort reward. Probably the best of the lot. Which is part of the problem really - it's such an obvious choice, none of the other hymns have a chance of competing.

[darkgod]

Yeah it is too good

[gruevy]

I really think you should be spending your time trying to find ways to make the classes that suck more playable instead of nerfing the few things that people have found that work. Haven't there only been winners with a small fraction of the classes? How about buffing the ones that no one can win with, or proving that they can be won by doing it.

[Grey]

I'd personally like to see every class nicely polished. Not all of my suggestions have been nerfs, and I've made lots of suggestions for class improvements in other threads. I also don't think obviously overpowered stuff should be ignored. Oh, and anorithil is now the class that I've gotten furthest with - level 42 on my second attempt with them!

And just because no one has won with a class yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

[gruevy]

Why do you think they need a nerf if they're not good enough for you to win with? They're so overpowered that you couldn't get to the end with one? I just don't understand the mindset here, I guess. I don't think the problem with the game is that it's too easy.

I'm especially surprised by your suggestion that the hymn be reduced. There are WAAAAAY too many things in the game that can stun and confuse. My experience has been that having the hymn isn't an option--it's almost a necessity. I've found that if I fail the escort quest for Anorithil, those characters don't get that far. I'm pretty damn tired of being chain stunned/confused any time I run into more than 3 monsters at once. It may be worse for a melee class like I usually play, since you can't kill things that stun before they reach you, but seriously, it's pretty ridiculous.

[Grey]

I died from my own mistakes and getting overconfident with the class - not due to the game being too hard. And if I won with every character I play I'd stop playing! I don't think the solution to every death is empowering the class further. Anorithils are known to be one of the easier classes. Also the last time I died with an Anorithil I made suggestions for new trees and other tweaks that ended up making the class more powerful - this is a slight correction on some points ;)

Stuns have been nerfed somewhat so that they're not as debilitating, but I agree that it's frustrating to get stunlocked. I normally do my best to avoid this by trying to stun them first, but it's not always easy. The problem with the hymn for anorithils is that it gets to 85% resistance when maxed - 95% if you put a cat point in it. That almost precludes any other source of stun, blind or confuse resistance. It makes the other hymns a joke that could never compare. I don't like it when there's a lack of choice between talents because one is obviously far far better than the others. I've already made suggestions to boost the others a little, but I think perseverance needs bringing down a notch too.

If the amount were reduced by about a third then the hymn would cap at around 60%, which is still very high for an essentially free effect. The escort reward would be around 20%, which is still extremely worth taking. And DarkGod might decide not to reduce the base value of resistances, so the escort reward might still be the same.

[Grey]

Huh I never thought Anorithil was overpowered even when Shadowblast did its damage every turn (i.e. My level 50's shadowblast did 300 a turn).

I think the damage is a little bit high for the cost when compared with some other AoE spells. Remember there's a higher burst damage at the start too. It's not majorly high though. The bigger problem is the duration, which scales to higher than the cooldown. I actually find it kinda frustrating - it's rare to have enemies still alive by the end of the spell, and you have to wait around for the effect to disappear before walking through it :(

[gruevy]

When you say they're known to be one of the easier classes, is that because there are like 5 people who have -ever- gotten one to 50? Or maybe because someone once won with one?

Is it really a problem that Anorithils are close to immune to stuns and confusion? I'm not seeing the problem with that. It's not like they're immune to physical damage. They're close to immune to two incredibly cheap and frustrating enemy tactics, increasing their survivability by just a bit. You're probably right that it shouldn't be the only option worth having, though. If it were me, however, I'd reduce it a *bit* and buff up the other ones to make them worth getting instead.

My opinion, and some random dude's opinion is all it is, is that at this point, unless a class is so ridiculously unstoppable it may as well be god mode (high level cursed), then just leave it be and figure out why everything else sucks so hard.

You could probably start with there being too many enemies that stun and confuse. Seriously, DarkGod, don't reduce the hymn benefit from escorts.

[Grey]

Maybe we should revive the stun discussion thread? :D

I think Anorithils are probably one of the most complete classes in the game now, but I don't think that should preclude them from minor tweaks. It would be nice if we could have a set of "done" classes, with the move out of beta hopefully becoming more and more imminent.

Oh, and another suggestion - have the Glyph tree unlocked from the start, otherwise no one will ever use them. I still think no one will use them if they're unlocked initially, but at least they'd be easier to have a play with...

[darkgod]

Seriously, DarkGod, don't reduce the hymn benefit from escorts.

This reward changes the other classes too much, they are not designed to have so much extra resist available.

You seem dead opposed to nerfs, nerfs are not bad, it is removing fun that is bad.
And having one option grossly overshadow all others is removing fun.
And no you cant just keep on buffing other stuff to compensate, lest you get a game where you start to express damage done using exponentials .. :/

[edge2054]

I agree with a lot of what Grey is saying, especially the thing about the Hymn. It's way to good and if it's so good that other classes need it from something that's not guaranteed then it needs to be nerfed and stun, confusion, and blindness need to be looked at.

I'd say the scaling should be toned down and the base hacked at pretty decently. Something like 10 + 5% per talent level.

This would give Anorithil 42% immunity if they maxed it out which is still great for a generic talent and give people picking it up from an escort a much more modest 15% immunity.

Anyway, I'll talk to Darkgod on IRC and see how he feels about me going over this stuff again.