Equilibrium Infusion regen / Problems with Equilibrium

[coffee]

There isn't still one of this right? Ok, why like mana users that can have mana infusions and mana regen weapons equilibrium users can't also regen at least with infusions.

Any mission escorting are problematic since there isn'ta a way of regen EQ due the "There is too much going now...". Do simple escort missions is ok, can be nicely done with have opportunity to meditate. But do Melinda mission where he just already have a lot of EQ acummulated saving her and then Melinda join us and we still have a lot to fight to escort her is a lot more complicated. And how about protect the gem ring guy in demon valley since "meditation" isn't possible for about 700 turns. I think for this situations things should be rethink since EQ straight failures are sometimes too constant.

[coffee]

A rebalancing pill.

Lol anything. It's really annoying ending for example Melinda mission with +400 Equilibrium! Any cast fail is an open invitation to the lovely couple be "erased" in their escape.

[Sirrocco]

There are a number of ways in the game to recover equilibrium.
- Meditation (which admittedly doesn't work so well ont eh Melinda quest)
- Swallow (available from the sandworm queen even if you are not a wyrmic)
- Certain pieces of gear will recover equilibrium when you are hit in melee
- A skill tree available from a certain quest that's easily doable before level 20.

Now, that's not to say that an equilibrium infusion is *entirely* unreasonable. If you want to burn an infusion slot on it, it seems like a reasonable thing to burn an infusion slot on, but it seems a bit of a shame to include yet another rune/infusion that will be meaningless for most characters and there are certainly other options out there.

[Grey]

It would make sense for the Wild infusion to regen a little equilibrium. Shouldn't be too much though, to prevent it being unbalancing.

[Final Master]

Wild infusions are already too good. If anything, I'd make a Rejuvinate infusion that regens vim/stamina/mana/equilibrium/other viable energy sources and nuke manasurge all togeather.

[Sirrocco]

...or perhaps a rejuvinate infusion for equilibrium/hate/etc and a energize rune for mana/vim/etc

Mind you, I'm not a particular fan of any of the above, either. I just don't like the idea of an infusion granting *mana* of all things. Seems like it would make more sense to just... y'know... take out the manasurge rune. Take out the manasurge rune, give shadowblades and arcane blades a little something to make up for it. Possibly take the opportunity to help them out thematically a bit by making their mana regen more flavorful. They're not bad classes as it is, but it feels like they've been suffering thematically ever since they lost the "desperate drug addict" schtick when we swapped over to infusions and runes. Having their powers depend on those little blue vials made their power source behave differently from everyone else's. Now they're just true mages who rely a bit more on their runes and a bit less on natural regen (and have to pump a moderate amount of stamina into a sustain to get that regen). Make the Arcane Blade regen off of crits (tuning into his powers through his mastery of the blade) and the shadowblade off of hitting debuffed enemies (stealing power from them while they are too crippled to resist) and you get some real flavor back - or some other setup that functions similarly.

[coffee]

Ok Sirrocco reading your post before this one I got that you have a personal dislike for infusions and vials, but that isn't really a general users problem (or the question here) right? But you should insist on that in Ideas thread

Well, generally analizing your toughts. Meditation is and should be enough in EQ regen. We just have a couple of situations that badly fail. Any other options are just little micro helpers and don't substitute Meditation in "off" situations. Also that alternatives pointed don't seem to match a possible infusion values (like the mana ones) and do a fast workaround for all summoners users.

- Meditation (which admittedly doesn't work so well ont eh Melinda quest)

The problem isn't that Meditation "don't work so well" but that don't work at ALL when escorting or do long non-stop missions like the demon valley (for double gem ring) or running mount doom. This only happen since the "There is too much going on" constrainment that requires total isolation now ,but ok people could activate by accident Meditation and suffer unwanted attacks. So a regen EQ infusion (even that rare) would be at least a "Fix" for that special ocasions.

- Swallow (available from the sandworm queen even if you are not a wyrmic)

Ok, but not pratical as desirable. I already used this before this but don't know if kill rate / possibility of regen vs absence of Meditation could avoid extreme EQ. Also we wouldn't gain 300 gold.

- Certain pieces of gear will recover equilibrium when you are hit in melee

First, seems "of the wilder" ego items (thanks for notice their existance) are so rare. Now playing a lvl29 and didn't get one in this game and can't remember get one before. However saw/got a lot with mana/stamina regen. But being hit as Summoner class is not desirable since they aren't really strong or mellee type and really need be far from battles. Also I doubt that cast rate vs turn regen could compensate Meditation absence. It would probable oblige to player to "rest" a lot to compensate the extreme values of Eq. But major flaw, how could we rest in non-stop/time limited actions?

- A skill tree available from a certain quest that's easily doable before level 20.

*SPOILERS*

The Zigur task? Never got that. He need be mana free, right? Never got allowed to do get it the times I tried. I'm avoiding in current game to activate any mana categorie (but I'm afraid escorts reward already give me 2 or 3 branches of mana categories) So this option is always a bit problematic to get it. I'll try it but... not easy and always need requisites to get it.

*END OF SPOILERS*

but it seems a bit of a shame to include yet another rune/infusion that will be meaningless for most characters and there are certainly other options out there.

erm wait what? There are a lot of "meaningless" infusions for this or that player but guess what? "Most characters" are not obliged to use the ones that don't need (as manasurges) or like. I personally never need or used a lot of them but don't blame the ones who use them. Ok, I got it that you don't like infusions.

[yufra]

I would give swallow a try before discarding it. It scales with the NPC's level and if you are in Melinda mission NPCs are probably in the 25-30 range. That is about 20-25 net equilibrium when it hits, not to mention being able to insta-kill some mean NPCs. Swallow may need to be reworked if you are one-hitting monsters (thereby never allowing swallow to work)... actually I think I will start a separate thread on that idea.

In regards to runes/infusions, I think Sirrocco's point is that increasing the number of focused runes/infusions you pollute the general pool of item drops in-game. As the number of classes/resources grows then number of runes/infusions you have to go through to find the one that is helpful to you versus the ones that are useless (to you) grows as well. This may feel natural to you, but others prefer a higher signal-to-noise ratio when playing, which I think is what Sirrocco was pointing out.

[Sirrocco]

Actually, coffee, that's not correct. I really rather like runes/infusions in general. I was one of the people who pushed them when the idea came up in the first place. I don't like the idea that runes/infusions should be the answer to resource issues - particularly cases like the shadowblades and arcane blades where the rune pretty much overwhelms every other available source of the resource. Consider - the behavior of resource pools is one of the stronger shaping factors in playstyle. The fact that the Cursed is constantly hurling himself into combat, even when not fully healed, and desperately searching out enemies when not actively in combat is one of the class's defining traits, and it's entirely based on his resource pool. If he had an infusion that just handed him 5-10 points of hate on command with a decent cooldown, he'd completely lose the feel of "ever-hungering predator" and start playing like a somewhat different variety of berserker.

I also didn't have a problem with the mana vials. I *liked* the idea of arcane blades and shadowblades as juicers - using chemical assistance to prop up their otherwise limited magical abilities. It's a relatively small casualty of the change to the new system, but it would be cool if they could go back to something as flavorful as that was. The idea that your resource pool was basically limited, and that refilling it took actual effort worked well for them. Manasurge runes warp that into something else entirely, since you can hit the rune, wait for the cooldown, and not have lost anything.

Meditation is not necessarily sufficient for EQ regen, but that's okay. There are other options - and those options are far more than just "micro helpers".

****Warning: there are a decent number of relatively small spoilers here.****

- Swallow is obviously of limited utility if you never engage in melee. If you're planning on playing a summoner (which is what it sounds like) then you may be avoiding melee altogether to the point where it won't help much. Similarly, if you never get hit in melee (because you have your summons tanking for you) then the hats of "give me equilibrium when someone smacks me" aren't going to be all that useful. On the other hand, if you're selling the heart of the sandworm queen rather than eating it, you *really* haven't been paying close enough attention to its actual effects.

- The Zigur task is entirely doable for any character who doesn't start out as a mage-type, if you set out to do it. It may be worth wandering around the spoiler forum to read up on the details though, so that you know what to avoid and when. It's a bit of a pain, but I don't know of any real requisites, and it pretty much solves any equilibrium problems you might have completely.

Now, having said all that, I'll accept that you do have a point - though it may perhaps permit a solution that's a bit less crude and big-sticky than "just give me an equilibrium infusion already". Your basic issue is that in this game, there are times that you really can't afford to stop moving for extended periods of time - particularly Mount Doom. (Rescuing Melinda and the escort quests could be solved by changing the code to let you meditate when in the presence of allies. Melinda can actually be handled now with the aid of a targeted teleport rune - she won't move if she can't see you, so if you can clear out an area and leave her in it while you clear out a second area, you'll do fine) Summoners are nonmelee equilibrium characters - if they can't cast, they die, and swallow and the hats don't work well for them. Antimagic would work, but it's enough of a hassle, and easy enough to miss, that it's not reasonable to insist that summoners must take antimagic in order to be viable.

It seems, then, that a more elegant solution would be to give the summoners another generic tree, unlocked at level 10. Something like...

- It is a comfort to have friends
--- Every summoned creature you have gives you +0.1 equilibrium every n turns. (designed so that at the higher levels, having low-powered summoned creatures remain alive for their full duration would be a net benefit to equilibrium. Possibly tied to a loss in equilibrium when your allies die.)
- Parting Gifts
--- Whenever one of your summons disappears because its duration expired (rather than being killed) you heal X life
- There is Safety in Numbers
--- You get +x armor and +y% resist all for each creature you currently have summoned
- I get by with a little help from my friends
--- specific bonuses to you for each creature type that you have summoned.

That way, summoners would have their own in-class solution (as wyrmics do, with swallow).

[yufra]

One of the things I suggested on IRC is to give jellies a swallow-like talent that restores equilibrium to the summoner. Jellies are pretty weak now so that would be a nice touch.

[Sirrocco]

Actually, that would work pretty well too. Actually, with the swallow changes suggested elsewhere, you could just give them the swallow talent as their base attack, with the equilibrium going to the summoner.

[edge2054]

I was the one that suggested Meditate not be possible with creatures in sight as a safety precaution back when it stunned. (Accidentally meditating at the wrong time was a death sentence.)

Now that it dazes instead I think it should probably go back to how it was before and the meditating with creatures in sight bit should just be dropped completely.

[coffee]

I was the one that suggested Meditate not be possible with creatures in sight as a safety precaution back when it stunned. (Accidentally meditating at the wrong time was a death sentence.)

Now that it dazes instead I think it should probably go back to how it was before and the meditating with creatures in sight bit should just be dropped completely.

I understand your request. However an interruption of meditation happen when enemy aproach in sight could be a better fix when was implemented. Kind of "During Meditation you sense that hostile creatures approach. You stop meditating".

As discussed in chat if was possible to Meditate when in friendly forces presence could solve escort Melinda mission for example. For other escortees they would have to "help" or be "blocked" in their way. However a non-stop action event still would lack a proper fix.

Another option could be a kind of explicit wanted Meditation with a kind of dialog "there is too much going on. do you have sure that you want meditate?" and then mandatory Meditation.

[Sirrocco]

Just a note, coffee - by your word choice I'm going to assume that you're not a native English speaker (and thus that this is unintentional) but you come across somewhat arrogantly.

[coffee]

Just a note, coffee - by your word choice I'm going to assume that you're not a native English speaker (and thus that this is unintentional) but you come across somewhat arrogantly.

Really didn't understood that very late note Sirroco about my arrogance and from where you take that conclusion but ok, it's acceptable. You and anyone else could always have that feeling of that if any of my opinions don't fit with yours. And yes, english not my native language but also reading again I didn't felt that somewhat was offensive or arrogant as also I didn't felt that your opinion was vinculative for me accept it as definitive answer or close to ideal solutions.

If was something in my first reply that annoyed you, I'm sorry because was not for sure intended. But it's perfectly natural that you didn't like so much objections to yours theories and way of thought. It's a simple confrontation of ideas and yours are quite different of mine in this subject and clash. Matter of fact I think your alternatives are too complex/unnatural/hidden when the solutions could be more straightforward, simple and universal to summoner players. Also by casuality I talked before in #tome today with a lot of people about some EQ problems and I was pleased to at least, darkgod and other game and lua experts agree that at least could be fixed in "origin" making Meditation available when in ally presence. You say in your second reply that "Meditation is not necessarily sufficient for EQ regen". Well don't have much wyrmic playtime to know EQ consumption style of play and it's of course your opinion but for summoner I played really so much and haven't a single complain about lack of EQ Meditation regen when needed to touch the regen button.

If possible you got "hurt" for not even replying yet a single word to your long second post, I'm sorry, not intended, I only saw edge's last reply and didn't saw all others posts between. That's mean also Yufra response post that was something suggested when I was in channel. About that, put jelly to do something more than weak explosions can give a new/true meaning to their presence in the Skill list.

BTW about your suggested another tree of skills for summoner. My humble opinion (hoping avoid more "arrogance" now) I think summoner already have sufficient skills for choice. And there is so much creatures and summoners skills not really very useful or that we couldn't MAX to give some proper utility. And Categories points are scarce and not right away available. So have another tree to "buy"? :/ I would prefer rethink substitute/rebalance weaker/unused skills, have even less skills and really better not have another category of skills.

Last, if was against anyone else that I didn't noticed or the general behavior, sorry, again not intended. If was also something in some other topic against you or anybody else that I'm not aware, then I really ask sorry for that abuse.