Rod of Recall appearing too late in the game

[Mithril]

It is great that we now have an recall item so one can avoid having to trudge back through the same levels again. However, it is located in a very difficult location. So getting it will likely be one of the last things you do before trying to defeat the Master. This means that you cannot use recall for a large part of the game which negates the purpose of the item.

Better would be if the rod of recall appeared early. Maybe combined with the upcoming identification artifact. The Tempest quest would be separate from the rod of recall and give another artifact as a reward.

[edge2054]

I managed to finish this area right after Old Forest (which I tend to do pretty early).

Granted it was difficult and cost me my blood of life but I would hardly call 'sometime before the Master' to late in the game.

[Mithril]

I managed to finish this area right after Old Forest (which I tend to do pretty early).

Granted it was difficult and cost me my blood of life but I would hardly call 'sometime before the Master' to late in the game.

So you died without the blood.

The darkness at Bree appears around level 13. By that time you will likely have finished at least two dungeons. Now, if I had extremely good lightning resist I might make a try at going to the deathtrap dungeon after that. Wiser would be to wait as long as possible in order to get as good lightning and stunning resists as possible. That boss when he has every lightning sustain available going on him is wicked! So the best tactic would be to do it right before doing the Master. Maybe leave the Sandworm lair until you have the rod if not a mage since it is particularly tedious if you are not a mage. This would still mean the much of the purpose of the rod is negated. Except if you are mage that is, since they only need the Rod in the Far East, but then I hoped the Rod would increase somewhat the incentive for not playing mages.

[teachu2die]

i am with mithril on this one.
the tempest quest is extremely dangerous for most lvl 12-14 characters. i also lost my blood of life the first time i tried it (with a lvl 14 or 15 character, iirc). i don't think it would be wise to take the quest on until level 17-20.
i also somewhat object to the addition of side quests that contain these predictable, yet essential items. as is the case with the guaranteed artifacts, this just produces extremely predictable gameplay, making things feel more like a final fantasy game than a rogue-like. i think recall should be made available, in some form, for a moderate cost, basically after the first dungeon.

[edge2054]

Well what killed me was a combination of a giant boulder thrower and something else. Lightning resistance wasn't a factor.

And I did it on a wyrmic not exactly one of the toughest classes in the game.

My lightning resist was around 20%.

My stun resist was 30 from a Hymn.

The boss himself wasn't very tough.

All that aside...

The best tactic for doing anything is to put it off as long as possible. Your choosing to put it off until later doesn't make the 'Rod of Recall appear to late in the game'. You can get it quite early if you're comfortable doing it or you can put it off to later and play it safe.

That's alright with me.

[Mithril]

Well what killed me was a combination of a giant boulder thrower and something else. Lightning resistance wasn't a factor.

And I did it on a wyrmic not exactly one of the toughest classes in the game.

My lightning resist was around 20%.

My stun resist was 30 from a Hymn.

The boss himself wasn't very tough.

All that aside...

The best tactic for doing anything is to put it off as long as possible. Your choosing to put it off until later doesn't make the 'Rod of Recall appear to late in the game'. You can get it quite early if you're comfortable doing it or you can put it off to later and play it safe.

That's alright with me.

Easiest thing is of course to never play any non-mage class since they do not have identify, recall, controlled phase door, vision, sense and many other things that make the game less tedious. But I had hoped that the Rod would make playing the non-mage classes more fun compared to mages.

If you have only played that level one time you will have difficulty judging the difficulty. I have have gone through it several times and it is IMHO the hardest thing you can do before taking on the Master. So the right thing tactically is doing it right before the Master. Now, obviously, you can do it earlier, maybe you will be lucky and succeed, but that is bad playing tactically.

[kingvictory2003]

I think the placement of the Rod of Recall is fine as is--given that the dungeons I do preceding the quest are pretty easy to navigate: Trollshaws, Amon Sul, Old Forest and the Maze (okay, it's not trivial, but not exactly dangerous either). Sandworm Lair and Carn Dum are where I really start liking the Rod of Recall, as they are hell to navigate.

I'll definitely agree the Tempest Peak is not the easiest area to navigate, and enemy detection/magic mapping is HIGHLY recommended. I can also see the quest being much harder for classes without reliable stuns. I myself hardly play classes that don't have reliable stuns, so I can't say but even when one of my stuns failed against him, it seemed that his attacks don't insta-own you like the Minotaur or even Bill does if they resist and hit you back with a stun.

[Sirrocco]

A pertinent question to the discussion: For the people who consistently play through to endgame, when do you face off against the Tempest?

[Grey]

Seems to me like the game functioned fine before the rod showed up. It's not a necessary item, nice though it is.

[overtrix]

I visit Bree after Trollshaws, then again after Old Forest if there weren't beastie-packs all over the place - then give it a wide berth until ready to tackle Tol Falas, use shops in Minas Tirith for adventuring requisites - at that stage can usually get in and out of Carn Dum before the levels hot up again, else would visit Sparky before that, but battling back up through Tol Falas is an unwelcome bit of levelling if it can be avoided. Have found that good equipment gives an advantage for a fair time when character and thus NPCs aren't buffed to the nines through levelling, the baddies not having access to shops.

"Late" is probably relative though - can remember taking several stages to get through OF, while now it's one expedition with at least deeper levels sparse on the way back, and yes it would have made gameplay more amenable to have a handy way of nipping back to the top. That said, by and large the shallower dungeons of T4 mean it's not a dealbreaker.

[kingvictory2003]

A pertinent question to the discussion: For the people who consistently play through to endgame, when do you face off against the Tempest?

Usually around level 15, as I've been trying to consistently do the antimagic quest. With funds from Trollshaws, Amon Sul, Old Forest, the Maze, and the lost merchant quest, I often can easily stock up on good gear and scrolls of magic mapping and enemy detection. Of course, I also enjoy scumming for Seers for the detection, identify, and magic mapping abilities so I usually have those abilities already.

[Final Master]

I disagree entirely. 'Most' of the game is actually after The Master, like, a good 70% of it. And it's useful in every dungeon after that but two or three. The quest starts at lvl12, and is very easily done by most classes by lvl 15. It's also very easy to get to lvl 15; do a beginning dungeon [Amon Sul/Trollshaws] and a median dungeon [Carn Dum/Maze/Old Forest/Sandworm Lair]. Any race/class combination should be at least level 15 by the time they are finished there, and should have also amassed enough gold to buy up whatever they need to complete the quest. Oh, and a secret, outside of the possible Storm Drakes/Wyrms, you actually don't really need lightning resistance at all/more than 20% for Tempests Peak, because the most dangerous things there are Carn Dum style Trolls. The Bree fight requires more potions/lightning res than the actual dungeon because you will be hit by nothing but lightning attacks.

In short, at most [for me at least] two dungeon levels worth of equipment and experience are needed to get the rod of recall. It's not that hard, doesn't require that much prep, and is very early in the game.

[Mithril]

Actually any kind of backtracking can be perceived as very boring by some people. I introduced a friend to tome who usually plays stone soup. He liked it a lot initially but went back to crawl. Part of the reason was the long backtracking through completed levels as well as difficult identification compared to crawl. Now, you can argue that these are only initial problems compared to the large game as a whole, but that is not what novices trying the game will perceive. It is the initial part and perceived fun which decides if a new player sticks with the game or not.

[darkgod]

hum you do have a point.

[Shoob]

it is kind of hard to compare "single" dungeon games like crawl or nethack to Tome with multiple dungeons where you can do them in any order you please.

Nothing is forcing you to start from the weakest dungeon and go to the hardest.

I was thinking about the location of it, if that should be changed, but because you have to go to angolwen it is fine to leave it in bree.

But most new people wont realize it is there until after they have done it, so maybe take the lightning particles from the far portal (in the gates of morning) and put it over the town when the player is able to do the quest. (and make sure the lightning goes in, not out)