Some ideas for a monkish class.

[edge2054]

Alright, the basic idea is to build a monk based roughly on the old Tome 2.xx monk and the diablo 2 assassin.

First of all, Monk talents would be adversely affected by fatigue using the following formula *(1-(fatigue/100)). In other words, if you're running around with 17% fatigue your abilities will only be at 83% strength. This would affect the Martial Arts Training tree (which will be generic) and all Monk class trees.

Secondly the Monk would have combination moves and finishing moves. Finishing moves would all have a status ailment attached and the duration of that would be based on the number of combo points. Combo points not used or added to within two turns are lost. In any case five combo points is the cap.

Finally the Monk would be able to Grapple. Pinning foes and having attacks that can only be used on pinned creatures. That'll be it's own tree.

As for some tree ideas.

Martial Arts Training
- Unarmed Strikes: The Monks 'weapon'. Putting points into this increases your base damage (a formula based off strength would probably be good, otherwise a Monk could dump all of their points into this for the first few levels and effectively have an end game weapon. Optimally it should take 5/5 Unarmed Strikes & 40+ Strength to get to this point).
- Avoidance: Increases Defense. What's mentioned above about scaling applies but based off Dex instead.
- Iron Skin: Armor talent, seeing a pattern This time it scales off Con.
- Conditioning: Provides some elemental resists and some bonuses to saves. Scales off Will.

Combination Strikes (combo builders, all scale off Dex)
- Combo String (Basic strike but w/scaling damage, no cooldown, builds one combo point, it does cost Stamina which is what separates it from 'attack')
- Double Strike (Builds two combo points, attacks twice but second strike is weaker, like a dual wielded strike)
- Whirlwind Kick (Attacks all adjacent creatures. Puts one combo point on each creature.)
- Flurry (Builds one combo point per talent point invested, longish cooldown compared to the rest of the tree)

Finishing Strikes (damage scales off Str, talent points, and combo points. Other effects just off combo points)
- Stunning Fist (Pretty much like every other stun attack but the number of rounds scales off combo points)
- Shattering Strike (Sunder Armor, amount scales off combo points)
- Vital Strike (Blinds the target, duration based off combo points)
- Finishing Blow (damage is multiplied by combo points)

Grappling Techniques (While a grab is maintained you can not move without breaking the grab but you can attack and use other techniques)
- Grab (Grapples the target (becomes pinned), more talent points along with strength increases the strength of the hold and initial damage inflicted. At level 5 you can grab two targets. Duration is based on the strength of the hold vs. monsters strength)
- Choke (Can only be performed on a grappled foe. Constricts target and inflicts damage every turn it's maintained. Damage and amount of air lost per turn is based off strength and talent level)
- Maim (Can only be performed on a grappled foe. Damage inflicted that reduces attack power. Damage based on str and tl)
- Gouge (Can only be performed on a grappled foe. Gouges a target in a vital area, inflicting lots of damage and possibly blinding it, stunning it, pinning it (seperate pin from grab), or confusing it for a few turns. Damage based on str and tl)

That's the basic tree outline. An advanced martial arts techniques tree could be a level 10 tree with APR and Crit for Unarmed Strikes and some other stuff, maybe spell dodge. Haven't really put much thought into that one yet.

[darkgod]

Ah yes that's what I thought monks should look like.
Although combo points should not be per target, codewise this makes for some interesting things (although it can be done) and gameplay-wise it means combo will never be useful against anything but big monsters/bosses.

I really love the idea of using fatigue this way.

As for weapon we could setup gloves with an unarmed_combat stat, this way we do not clutter the loot for all other classes and yet provide a way to improve your damage through stuff.
Not sure how to do the same to armour though

[edge2054]

So basically track combo points on the player rather then the mob right? I think that's how Diablo 2 handles it actually and probably for similar reasons. Whirlwind Kick could be adjusted to one combo point earned per two adjacent enemy (letting you build them up quickly when you're surrounded).

There's already mage armor in the game, robes and wizard's hats. Yeah, it's kinda corny but I pictured them wearing these.

Robes could stay robes and wizards hats could have the drop tables refined to split between cloth hats and wizards hats. Both classes could use them if they wanted but wizards hats would tend towards 'caster' stats and cloth towards 'monk' stats.

[Taxorgian]

A possible skill tree?
Body paint (only usable if there is no armor or item covering the specified paint)
- Red Dragon/Chest - Passive; produces fire damage on the enemy if you are attacked. Scales with CON. Becomes a radius 1 effect at 3/5.
- Sand Dragon/Forehead - Passive; enemies that attack have a chance to be blinded. Scales with DEX.
- Bone Dragon/Ankle - Passive; Gives resistance to blight. At 2/5 increases physical resistance. Scales with CON.
- Multihued Dragon/Neck - Passive; Gives resistance to elements scaled by STR. At 1/5 Fire resistance, 2/5 Cold, 3/5 Lightning, 4/5 Acid, 5/5 Magic

[edge2054]

I like the Bodypaint idea but might I suggest Tattoos? Bodypaint for me anyway seems more berserker/barbarianish.

[madmonk]

A possible skill tree?
Body paint (only usable if there is no armor or item covering the specified paint)
- Red Dragon/Chest - Passive; produces fire damage on the enemy if you are attacked. Scales with CON. Becomes a radius 1 effect at 3/5.
- Sand Dragon/Forehead - Passive; enemies that attack have a chance to be blinded. Scales with DEX.
- Bone Dragon/Ankle - Passive; Gives resistance to blight. At 2/5 increases physical resistance. Scales with CON.
- Multihued Dragon/Neck - Passive; Gives resistance to elements scaled by STR. At 1/5 Fire resistance, 2/5 Cold, 3/5 Lightning, 4/5 Acid, 5/5 Magic

Actually if you separate them out to align with body armour it might make it easier to code.

Red Dragon Glyph = Body Armour
Sand Dragon Glyph = Helmet
Bone Dragon Glyph = Boots
Multihued Dragon Glyph = Shield arm (?)

etc, etc

<hijack>
Which might be a way of developing a RuneMaster...

In other words create runes that can be painted on the body, along side runes that can be done on terrain features.

</hijack>

[Taxorgian]

I like the Bodypaint idea but might I suggest Tattoos? Bodypaint for me anyway seems more berserker/barbarianish.

I did consider calling them tattoos, but madmonk's idea

... runes that can be painted on the body, along side runes that can be done on terrain features.

was part of my consideration also. This might be a tree that could be used for more than one class; I think it's pretty well balanced since you must give up (in my model) body armor, helmets, boots and amulets to access all of them (so a number of otherwise-nice artifacts are not available).

Actually if you separate them out to align with body armour it might make it easier to code.

Unfortunately there aren't four items of body armor that would be appropriate, since gloves would be developed in part for monks (so depriving them of that seems counterproductive). I have no idea where the light source is located and rings have the same problem as gloves.

[edge2054]

I don't know about coding it but Shield arm would be fine I think as long as the code could distinguish between covering the arm (with a shield) and using the arm (dual wielding or a two handed weapon). Giving up a shield for resists makes sense but if the talent tree did end up getting reused taking up that arm would keep it out of the hands of a lot of classes.

[darkgod]

Tatoos sound good yes!

And a runecraft was proposed by your madmonk during alpha IIRC ?

[madmonk]

Tatoos sound good yes!

And a runecraft was proposed by your madmonk during alpha IIRC ?

Correct I did!

Also Tattoos tend to be permanent, so swapping them around would be difficult. Which is why I suggested paint.

If you give them a long cooldown period, then that would represent when the paint has worn out and so the Glyph can be replaced.

[Taxorgian]

The other reason for considering paint is that the power of a sigil in Chinese legend (if I remember correctly) is supposed to be in the calligraphy. Which explains why one has to learn how to paint it.

And I think it's also reasonably balanced if you can only use one at a time. Maybe it should be passive and cumulative for a monk (sacrificing armor/equipment for the powers) while activated for a runecrafter?

[edge2054]

Here's a more fleshed out Improved Martial Arts (level 10+) tree.

- Improved Unarmed Strike: APR and Crit improvements. (Passive)
- Focus Chi: Gives back appropriate resource (stamina?) (Activated)
- Steely Resolve: Gives an additional chance to resist stun and confusion. (Passive)
- Vigor: Global Speed Increase (Passive, have to keep in mind balance on this one)

[edge2054]

It's been awhile since I've looked at this thread but I've been toying with the idea of coding an animal stance based monk class.

Here's some rough brain storming questions.

Should the class be a wilder and use equilibrium? Should it be psi based? Or just straight stamina?

If the class uses animal stances (was thinking traditional Five Animals Kung Fu; Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, and Dragon) how do we keep the trees balanced and interesting without being to hotkey heavy?

Some initial ideas for trees using a less mystical approach (stamina based) though not really fleshed out. Note that each of the stances is a sustain that gets learned when you first learn the styles strike attack. Using the strike moves you into the stance and the stances themselves will scale off the style mastery talent.

Combat Training

Martial Arts (generic tree; does not follow standard progression but rather the same progression as Combat Training)
Unarmed Mastery (10 points) - Increases damage with unarmed attacks by X% (just like weapon masteries).
Empty Hand (5 points) - Increases base damage of unarmed attacks (1 point = tier 1 equivalent damage, 2 points = tier 2 equivalent damage, etc. etc.). Learnable at level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.
Avoidance (5 points) - Increases defense. The defense bonus will be disabled if the character wears heavy armor.
Iron Body (5 points) - Increases armor and reduces the chance you'll be critically hit. The armor bonus will be disabled if the character wears heavy armor.

Spiritual Techniques (generic tree; req Will)
Mind and Body Harmony - Increases Str and Dex by +2 per talent point.
Inner Focus - Increases all saves by +2 per talent point.
Fortified Spirit - Increases elemental resistances by 5 per talent point.
Wholeness of Body (Active) - Heals the character f and removes X negative status effects.

Tiger Style (Outline tree, the other trees will follow a similar progression order)
Tiger Strike - A fierce attack that forces the character into Tiger Stance.
Tiger Rake - A vicious claw attack that deals bleed damage over time (requires Tiger Stance).
Tiger Rip - An attack to the victims throat designed to be fatal (requires Tiger Stance).
Tiger Mastery (passive) - Lowers the cooldowns of all tiger attacks and increases the bonuses of the stance.

Leopard Style

Snake Style

Crane Style

Dragon Style (advanced tree)

Grappling Techniques (advanced tree)

[madmonk]

It's been awhile since I've looked at this thread but I've been toying with the idea of coding an animal stance based monk class.

Here's some rough brain storming questions.

Should the class be a wilder and use equilibrium? Should it be psi based? Or just straight stamina?

How about a new energy form - Qi? Failing that then equilibrium would be a good way to go.

If the class uses animal stances (was thinking traditional Five Animals Kung Fu; Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, and Dragon)

Why are you choosing to use Hung Ga? Why not Wing Chun or one of the other styles?

If you like it because the names are great then that's fine!

how do we keep the trees balanced and interesting without being to hotkey heavy?

Careful management... In other words I don't think you can avoid it.

Some initial ideas for trees using a less mystical approach (stamina based) though not really fleshed out. Note that each of the stances is a sustain that gets learned when you first learn the styles strike attack. Using the strike moves you into the stance and the stances themselves will scale off the style mastery talent.

So this implies that more than most classes this will have a lot of passive techniques?

Combat Training

Martial Arts (generic tree; does not follow standard progression but rather the same progression as Combat Training)
Unarmed Mastery (10 points) - Increases damage with unarmed attacks by X% (just like weapon masteries).
Empty Hand (5 points) - Increases base damage of unarmed attacks (1 point = tier 1 equivalent damage, 2 points = tier 2 equivalent damage, etc. etc.). Learnable at level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.
Avoidance (5 points) - Increases defense. The defense bonus will be disabled if the character wears heavy armor.
Iron Body (5 points) - Increases armor and reduces the chance you'll be critically hit. The armor bonus will be disabled if the character wears heavy armor.

I assume that the combat bonuses are void for Massive armour as well?

Spiritual Techniques (generic tree; req Will)
Mind and Body Harmony - Increases Str and Dex by +2 per talent point.
Inner Focus - Increases all saves by +2 per talent point.
Fortified Spirit - Increases elemental resistances by 5 per talent point.
Wholeness of Body (Active) - Heals the character f and removes X negative status effects.

I approve most Martial Arts in China have a whole range of healing techniques.

Tiger Style (Outline tree, the other trees will follow a similar progression order)
Tiger Strike - A fierce attack that forces the character into Tiger Stance.
Tiger Rake - A vicious claw attack that deals bleed damage over time (requires Tiger Stance).
Tiger Rip - An attack to the victims throat designed to be fatal (requires Tiger Stance).
Tiger Mastery (passive) - Lowers the cooldowns of all tiger attacks and increases the bonuses of the stance.

Leopard Style

Snake Style

Crane Style

Dragon Style (advanced tree)

Grappling Techniques (advanced tree)

So looking at this I would perhaps consider doing this:

School - Taming the Tiger
Builds Endurance and other things

School - Tiger/Crane Paired
Striking techniques

School - Five Animal Fist
Dragon
Leopard
Crane
Tiger
Snake

School - Iron Wire
Internal techniques

Various School - Weapons

Consider: Sword, Fan, Spear, Stick

I am not a Hung Ga devotee, (mine is T'ai Ji and Bagua), so a lot of this is cribbed from friends who do practice Hung Ga, Wikipedia..., and various schools!

[Grey]

Should the class be a wilder and use equilibrium? Should it be psi based? Or just straight stamina?

I'd say straight stamina, though equilibrium could work as well.

If the class uses animal stances (was thinking traditional Five Animals Kung Fu; Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, and Dragon) how do we keep the trees balanced and interesting without being to hotkey heavy?

Hmm... well, firstly I must say that though the names are lifted from real martial arts stuff, don't even bother trying to make them tie up in any way. Go with what's fun, rename as necessary, and forget all about the real world apart from for inspiration. Indeed I'd straight away say take out animals not in ToME4 and go with Bear, Snake, Rat, Spider, Dragon.

The martial artist should mostly rely on straight melee attacks, many passives, some sustains, and the odd tactical activated talent.

Stances should play a big part, but they need not be ones for the player to hotkey through - they could be forced on the player depending on what is going on in the battlefield. Low HP sends you to Rat, many enemies nearby to Bear, many enemies far away to Spider, etc. What stance you're in changes how some of your talents work, as well as having general passive effects which are unlocked/improved through their trees. This forces the player to invest across all stances or to deliberately play in ways to encourage certain stances. How to force stances through gameplay should be very clear.

I also think there should be a Naked Fist tree, that gives very powerful passives for players that are wearing zero equipment items. Naked Fury = +phys_power, Bare Avoidance = +defence and %spell avoidance, Flesh Untainted = various resistance, Naked Feet = +global speed. Should be a viable way of playing, but with its own unique challenges :)

Giving them exotic weapons mastery seems like a nice idea, but it would be a bit silly to go adding in a bunch of rare exotic weapons just for the one class.

One really cool thing to see would be something like the combat moves from flend's PrincessRL, where your general movements around or towards enemies trigger different effects and attacks. It gives a kinda Street Fighter feel to the combat, and really makes you feel like you're playing a martial artist.