Equipment suggestion: wizard hats for spellcasters

[ushumgal]

Spellcasters already have staffs (or should I say staves?...) and robes, but another article commonly associated with wizardry is the pointy hat. Perhaps this could be made into an equipment type, so spellcasters can get bonuses from suitable headwear?

[Taxorgian]

Perhaps, but...

"Highly intelligent beings of all races have since time immemorial been considered 'pointy-headed'. As a consequence of reality bending of certain kinds of magic users, their heads really DO become pointy, so they can no longer fit normal headgear. So only wizard hats are available for them..."

All common types are keyed to magic stat, always -2 def and 0 armor (-2 since they make the position of the head even more obvious). Ego headgear would have a % increase in one spell type but gives a minus to defense on the same kind because it amplifies the effect of that element.

Artifact?

The Iridescent Cap of Angolwen (-5 def, 0 armor)
Increases damage Acid 20% Lightning 20% Cold 20% Fire 20%
Spellpower 15 Resistance Cold -20% Lightning -20% Acid -20% Fire -20%
A gaudy sliken hat crafted by mages of immense power. It is said to encourage caution for the unwary through an effect named for a hapless breeman initiate named D'Arwen....

[Baker]

I don't think that wizards should have too much custom gear only they can use. For one having literally pointy heads would be kind of absurd, for the other it would create a balance problem: There might be other classes that can profit from the stats just as well but who aren't technically mages, as far as the engine is concerned. Because of this, implementing special wizard-only gear would only mean that there would have to be two parallel sets with the basically same stats but different flavor texts, which is pointless. Just keep everyone capable of using everything as long as they have the appropriate stats, it's simpler and less work to boot.

[registeringislame]

There's no reason to make the equipment solely for their use.

For balance, none of the items should be huge +s to defence or armour, and the bonuses would be focused on wizardy areas so not of much use to other classes (barring some weird bizzaro build, which I like and think makes the game more interesting.)

[Taxorgian]

For one having literally pointy heads would be kind of absurd, for the other it would create a balance problem: There might be other classes that can profit from the stats just as well but who aren't technically mages, as far as the engine is concerned.[...]

I guess I need to include [sarcasm] tags? But my point was that mages should not get to choose good quality fighter-type or mage-type headgear, although perhaps an arcane blade type could (see below).

For balance, none of the items should be huge +s to defence or armour, and the bonuses would be focused on wizardy areas so not of much use to other classes (barring some weird bizzaro build, which I like and think makes the game more interesting.)

This is of course why I also proposed the negative defense values (and negative element defense) above. I don't see any reason why someone who had requisite stats (Magic 25?) and wanted to couldn't wear the Iridescent Cap, just like with the shade's Ugly Stick....

[Baker]

I guess I need to include [sarcasm] tags? But my point was that mages should not get to choose good quality fighter-type or mage-type headgear, although perhaps an arcane blade type could (see below).

Nah, I just figured it would be funnier this way But honestly, I dislike the idea of class-restricted equipment in general, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Mages shouldn't use Warrior gear because it's useless for them, not because they can't figure out how to put on a metal helmet. Saying their heads are pointy is really a good example, because it shows just as arbitrary this kind of restriction is. They might as well actually have pointy heads, because I sure can't figure out why else they shouldn't be able to do that!

Having a lot of class-restricted stuff makes sense in a multiplayer game, because there's always another player who can use that Sword of Murderness +12 even if you can't. In a game like ToME it just means that your options become more limited and less interesting and if you're unlucky you might end up never finding any good stuff for your class at all. The way it currently is I can at least use that Chainmail of Fire Resistance if I really need the resists, even if it isn't the best option for me. I think this adds a lot of tactical depth to the game -- do I wear the armor I found, even if it restricts my spellcasting, or do I take the extra damage and hope my spells and potions can pull me through?

Also you'd probably eventually end up with a specific must-have ascension kit for each class, which I already hated in Nethack.

[Taxorgian]

To be fair, staffs already are effectively "class-restricted" items. I actually haven't tried -- I'll probably do it next time I play -- but do archmages have to wield them to do spells? If not, collect 50gp and you have a possible tank with powerful magic AND magic regeneration....

[Baker]

Actually, no, they don't. But they're still mostly reliant on them to get any reasonable kind of damage output, so you're probably not going to gain a lot by equipping shields instead. Being magic reliant and putting points into any stat other than Willpower and Magic is effectively impossible right now, so heavy armour isn't an option. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Honestly, I think there's too much minmaxing in the game right now. If you don't take the optimum route in stats and equipment you're not likely to get very far, and even then an unlucky crit from a monster is still going to insta-kill you. I feels like I'm playing some kind of MMORPG right now, the options are just so narrow and the roles so rigidly defined. I think adding specialized equipment can only make this worse and push you even more in one particular direction.

[darkgod]

My last mage invested into heavy armour training and was very happy with it.
Also next beta you'll get a secondary weapons set you can switch with just one key (and one turn), so you can find a good use for not-so-used-weapons-but-sill.
If I had it when I played my mage I'd probably have used it for ringil & a good shield to switch to in case of need.

As for minmaxing, dunno, how would you change stuff?
Also you have to be carefull, if players can just play without thinking much how they build they char, the game becomes too easy for those that do.
If you are talking about opening more options to build a good char then yes I am all for it.
In the end I want players to be able to buy/learn/.. access to many of the existing talents, so this way they decide how to play. But to be able to do that, each of them must work well first.

As for getting insta killed, next beta has changed every damage formula. Melee damage will be based on your sword power but also on yoru strength and not with a simple addition. So a mithril wielding skeleton should less damage.
I am trying to make the start easier (but the middle/end hard).

[Baker]

My last mage invested into heavy armour training and was very happy with it.
Also next beta you'll get a secondary weapons set you can switch with just one key (and one turn), so you can find a good use for not-so-used-weapons-but-sill.
If I had it when I played my mage I'd probably have used it for ringil & a good shield to switch to in case of need.

Oh, that's neat, I really missed that coming from Crawl. Is it going to be in an equipment slot of its own? That would certainly help keep your inventory organized and all information available at a single glance.

As for minmaxing, dunno, how would you change stuff?
Also you have to be carefull, if players can just play without thinking much how they build they char, the game becomes too easy for those that do.
If you are talking about opening more options to build a good char then yes I am all for it.
In the end I want players to be able to buy/learn/.. access to many of the existing talents, so this way they decide how to play. But to be able to do that, each of them must work well first.

Yeah, you've got a point there, but on the other hand making the game too difficult in any stage is only going to ruin it for all the newcomers and the more casual players who just want to have fun and screw around (like me.) You can always add more difficulty with challenge modes, for those that want this kind of thing, but taking away the high difficulty once you've made it the point of the game is hard without ruining the fun. Imagine a bullet hell shooter with only two or three bullets on the screen at a time -- sure, it's easier for new players, but it also takes away the point of the game completely.

I know there's still a lot of features coming, so there's going to be more variety eventually, but in general I hope to see more options for acquiring new talent categories and especially more utility talents. Balance can always be fixed afterwards, once you know what you're actually dealing with, but right now more stuff to actually do is what the game is missing most. Everything relies so much on making the absolute most of every skill point that there isn't a lot of room to experiment (or a lot of things to experiment with, for that matter). The classes don't really feel that different from each other either. A rogue is mostly a warrior that can't hit very well and an archer is basically a mage with no area of effect attacks.

So I'm thinking skills that aren't necessarily meant for direct combat but allow you to do creative stuff with the monsters, to the monsters, with the dungeon, with yourself and your equipment, maybe creating things... Anything that helps give you the feeling that you can influence the world instead of sitting in front of some kind of static backdrop would help. Maybe couple some non-combat achievement with that, anything to keep things more RPG-y instead of making it a turn-based Diablo. Also more rewards for actually exploring stuff, like the way you get wyrmics by eating the sandworm queen, except more on a character by character basis.

Having the skills scale better with your level would help with the rigidity, too. Except for the one point wonders, there's no real point in putting less than the maximum into your chosen skills right now, so there's no real point in diversifying either. Maxxed out skills should mean they're your specialty, what you've build your strategy around, not a bare necessity to keep up with the enemies.

As for getting insta killed, next beta has changed every damage formula. Melee damage will be based on your sword power but also on yoru strength and not with a simple addition. So a mithril wielding skeleton should less damage.
I am trying to make the start easier (but the middle/end hard).

Sounds good, those skeletons are seriously the stuff of nightmares. I lost a level 10 mage on the first level of Amon Sul recently, because a single hit did more damage than my maximum HP.

[darkgod]

About skills:
Part of the formula changes for next beta is a non linear gain. The first point gives you more than the second one and so on.
The gain is never meaningless but it should encourage to diversify your points more.

I was also pondering having to types of talents, let say the current talents and then more generic ones, lets call them skills.
The talents would be as now, and would include most/all of the damage oriented talents, because that is still the root of the game: killing stuff.
The skills would focus more on the utility side of things.
I.E: a mage would have the conveyance, divination and some other schools be classified as skills instead.
Each level you'd gain less talent points but you'd also gain some skill points, so you could improve your utility without fearing of not being good enough in combat.

Talents would be a very rare thing to learn for classes that do not start with them, while skills would be much more common.
So a warrior that knows conveyance would not be too hard to gain, but a fireflashing warrior would be rare/not possible.

I had also planned something called "rituals", basically you'd find an old tome which teaches you a skill/talent in a "slot", and you have a limited number of slots so you must choose what to keep. Such things could be ID, word of recall, ... well utility things as we talked about.

Thoughts ?

[Baker]

Actually, that sounds really good, it's pretty much exactly what I was hoping for. Having two different kinds of abilities with their own points to distribute would make your character more interesting without overpowering you in combat (good for the balancing side of things). I'm definitely in favor of a solution like this, it's a lot like what I was talking about: You choose your class for your focus and basic playstyle and can go from there where you want.

Non linear skills are also a good thing. The biggest issue with the current talent tree is that it really doesn't scale very well, but this looks like it could fix that issue pretty good.

[darkgod]

List of possible talents to become skills :
- Spell/Conveyance
- Spell/Divination
- Spell/nature
- Technique/Combat Techniques (both)
- Technique/Combat Training
- Cunning/Survival
- Wild Gift/Slime
- Wild Gift/Antimagic (does not exist yet)
- Divine/Chants
- Divine/Hymns

Anything else?
Ideas ?

[Gwai]

I LOVE IT!

I feel like you are trying encourage just the style of play that I love best. Consider me happy as a clam and eager to see this implemented.

By the way, will these skills also include a decent way for wizards to avoid traps? I like the maze, but the number of wizards I have die to traps is beginning to make me want to strangle something (or just leave the maze alone.) Even once level ten hits and my wizard can begin to put points into trap disarming, she has to think about whether can afford not to pump those points into combat oriented skills. And even if she does put those points into disarm, it takes quite a few levels before her disarm is good enough to be useful for the maze.

[darkgod]

Thanks

As for traps, wizards will have access to Sense as a skill, so improving it to detect traps wont hinder your combat abilities