Saving CON! And undead while we're at it!

[isaacssv552]

I'm making an addon to implement the proposed con changes.

[Atarlost]

dex/cun/mag sun paladins are definitely currently viable. If they couldn't lift their weapons or wear armor they wouldn't be.

They'd still be viable. They just wouldn't wear plate mail or use swords. They'd either run staff or daggers and have to use lighter armor.

No, they really wouldn't be. Not the way they are now. Dex/cun melee relies on using swords to get decent returns from accuracy overflow. Light armor does not provide nearly the defense that the class expects and even two handed builds with massive armor are far harder to keep alive than sword and board builds. A build that is a peer to strength builds gets reduced to a gimped challenge build.

[edge2054]

A build that is a peer to strength builds gets reduced to a gimped challenge build.

A dex/cun Sun Paladin should be a gimmick build.

[Ivels]

I was thinking, may be CON could also have fatigue reduction, something like .5 per point? Sinking 50 points into it would essentially let your character wear a heavy plate with no penalty. On its own the bonus is too small to carry the stat, but together with heal mod it could open new some build possibilities.

[Atarlost]

A build that is a peer to strength builds gets reduced to a gimped challenge build.

A dex/cun Sun Paladin should be a gimmick build.

Why? All individual combat except some forms of wrestling is primarily finesse based. This is true of oriental martial arts and reconstructed occidental martial arts and continuously practiced occidental martial arts. Con should be important, but strength is humanity's dump stat compared to other animals of similar size. And the halflings, who are even more biased towards dexterity and cunning, are the ones that historically enslaved humans in Maj'eyal.

[edge2054]

Because they're not rogues.

I have nothing against gimmick builds but a plate wearing sun paladin with dex/cun/mag isn't that, it's an abuse of game mechanics.

[Atarlost]

Because they're not rogues.

I have nothing against gimmick builds but a plate wearing sun paladin with dex/cun/mag isn't that, it's an abuse of game mechanics.

It's the game mechanics that are in the wrong then. You don't make heavier armor when you have better materials, you make thinner armor that's easier to wear. You certainly don't make heavier weapons. You make the blade thinner with maybe deeper fullers to keep the weight down. If you can't make it thinner that means the material has a lower strength to weight ratio and is therefore actually an inferior material for making weapons or armor. The absurdity of the high strength prerequisites gets ignored because with temporary gear they turn into loose level prerequisites, but they're frankly absurd. Especially since the weights are the same regardless of material for any item type.

[HousePet]

You'd think this was a fantasy game.

Anyway, Sun Paladin is not designed to be a dex/cun class, so invoking real life doesn't really help here.

[Effigy]

It does seem strange the way the requirements work though. For instance, with 11 Dex I can use an iron dagger with no problem, but I can't quite wrap my head around using a steel dagger...? Why do I need more Str/Dex to wield a weapon made of superior materials? Strength requirements on armor make sense to some extent, but for weapons it really doesn't.

It would probably be better if you could just equip whatever you want, but your effectiveness at using it would scale differently based on your stats/talents. Maybe base power for weapons and fatigue for armor could scale with stats, but the other weapon stats would be the same regardless of stats.

[edge2054]

Sure. Weapons do this anyway.

Massive armor could give a move speed penalty that could be offset with strength. Say 10% per tier. Each point of strength over 10 offsets one of these penalty points.

Go 5% per tiet for heavy armor.

Then make prodigies/talents use base stat and we've killed stat juggling.

[malboro_urchin]

Then make prodigies/talents use base stat and we've killed stat juggling.

This would come with a rebalance of prodigy stat requirements, right?

[grayswandir]

Massive armor could give a move speed penalty that could be offset with strength. Say 10% per tier.

That's not quite realistic though.

If we're going for realism, the type of armour (heavy vs. massive) would decide the weight, fatigue, and any movespeed penalty, with maybe a 10%-20% discount for the "lighter" metals, whichever they end up being. Material would only influence armor rating and hardiness.

[edge2054]

I was actually ignoring Atarlost's comments about realism. Stat requirements aren't there to be realistic, they're there to give the player a sense of progression while also having loot tables random enough that a tier 5 weapon can show up in a tier 2 dungeon chest or vault.

In other words, they exist so we can have late game gear show up early without breaking the game. At least in theory. In practice I think veteran players hang on to every piece of stat gear they find like grim death and equip tier 5 gear as soon as they find it.

Honestly I think your comment a few pages back is still the best solution grayswandir.

[Zonk]

I was actually ignoring Atarlost's comments about realism. Stat requirements aren't there to be realistic, they're there to give the player a sense of progression while also having loot tables random enough that a tier 5 weapon can show up in a tier 2 dungeon chest or vault.

Bolded for emphasis by me...Is that actually still true as of now? Wouldn't it be better to just make the loot tables a bit more level-appropriate?

[edge2054]

They are generally more level appropriate. Chests and vaults break the rules.