Preventing stairs cheating

[Sirrocco]

Feels a bit more real, too. You've been through the old woods and seen every corner - so now you actually know the layout of the place. It's kind of cool that way. Certainly makes the sandworm lair less of a hassle to get out of once you've gotten in - and it gives people a reason to penetrate a short distance into a dungeon, and map the levels they see fully so that the next time they come along (after having levelled elsewhere) they can zip through the earlier zones.

[ghostbuster]

Just because abusing stairs may be possible in some roguelikes does not automatically mean that it is good and all roguelikes must allow it. It is certainly unrealistic. It is not fun if it makes the game trivial. As noted above you can still run away using stairs and a PD scroll, even if not completely risk free, if the monsters are allowed to follow you up stairs.

Regarding healing the monsters I discussed that in the first post in this thread. But I can repeat it. "Monsters will be fully healed if you leave a level. However, this has the disadvantage of still making it possible to use stairs cheating against groups of monsters where you kill of a few at a time each time you use the stairs. Also, even against powerful single monsters you can still use the stairs to try and try to kill them again and again in the hope that the rng will favor you eventually."

Fleeing is not an abuse IMO and I do not see why it would make the game trivial. When you reenter the level, monsters are prepared, maybe gathered and they are more dangerous.

I must say that I really do not see the difference between using a stair and using PD or teleport to escape a desperate fight. In either case, you do not know what you will meet. The upper level may have been repopulated and may not be as friendly as you would expect. In either case, you can "kill of a few at a time" and hide to recover. "Fight, kill some, and PD" is something that I do very frequently. And I really do not consider that as cheating. Rather as a good tactic against a group of powerful ennemies.

And I do not get your point about expecting a better RNG. Again, it is completely similar to trying to kill a powerful opponent and using PD in case you feel you are failing. Just less efficient if monsters are fully healed when you reenter the dungeon (and I think they should). And you may expect a better RNG, yes. But you may also have a worse RNG and die...

Concerning monsters following you. Why not, it was already present in some RL (adom, among others IIRC). And I must say that this is a feature that I have used from time to time (and maybe abused). You can attract this way a small set monsters (the ones that were close to the stair), kill them maybe on a better terrain (and certainly in smaller groups), and go down to kill the remaining (or even attract some of the remaining in the upper level). Not sure it would not be also considered as cheating....

[teachu2die]

yeah yeah, i know there are some perks to persistent levels ... but i think mostly its in the flavor department. it also makes revisiting levels generally much more boring and predictable (particularly since the lit squares rather inexplicably reveal newly spawned items...)...
and with the obscene loading times and other probs, i'd be more than a little tempted to ditch the persistent levels entirely... but i'm probably alone on that one...

[Smips]

New idea: Going up and down stairs quickly causes you to stumble, resulting in Stun.

Edit: After more thought, Stun Resistance would have to be ignored as well.

[Grey]

Regarding healing the monsters I discussed that in the first post in this thread. But I can repeat it. "Monsters will be fully healed if you leave a level. However, this has the disadvantage of still making it possible to use stairs cheating against groups of monsters where you kill of a few at a time each time you use the stairs. Also, even against powerful single monsters you can still use the stairs to try and try to kill them again and again in the hope that the rng will favor you eventually."

This still reduces the current problems significantly, especially against bosses. If the boss is reset to full HP then they will not be a trivial fight. Luck can only take you a certain distance. Also restoring the monsters to full health/cooldowns/status doesn't physically affect the player, so it can't be seen as any sort of punishment.

[Lailoken]

I like the persistent levels. It makes the world feel more immersive. With levels getting generated again every time you enter them, it feels like I am playing an arcade game and I can't suspend my disbelief. This isn't bad in itself, but not what I look for in an RPG/roguelike.

I think both solutions would solve the problem. I like Mithril's plan best; it sounds interesting and fun. But healing/repopulating monsters on level change would work just fine for me too.

[Mithril]

Fleeing is not an abuse IMO and I do not see why it would make the game trivial. When you reenter the level, monsters are prepared, maybe gathered and they are more dangerous.

I must say that I really do not see the difference between using a stair and using PD or teleport to escape a desperate fight. In either case, you do not know what you will meet. The upper level may have been repopulated and may not be as friendly as you would expect. In either case, you can "kill of a few at a time" and hide to recover. "Fight, kill some, and PD" is something that I do very frequently. And I really do not consider that as cheating. Rather as a good tactic against a group of powerful ennemies.

And I do not get your point about expecting a better RNG. Again, it is completely similar to trying to kill a powerful opponent and using PD in case you feel you are failing. Just less efficient if monsters are fully healed when you reenter the dungeon (and I think they should). And you may expect a better RNG, yes. But you may also have a worse RNG and die...

Concerning monsters following you. Why not, it was already present in some RL (adom, among others IIRC). And I must say that this is a feature that I have used from time to time (and maybe abused). You can attract this way a small set monsters (the ones that were close to the stair), kill them maybe on a better terrain (and certainly in smaller groups), and go down to kill the remaining (or even attract some of the remaining in the upper level). Not sure it would not be also considered as cheating....

I think you are missing how stairs can be abused. At the final level of the dungeons there are typically a boss who is many times more powerful than the typical monster. Fighting this monster typically requires something more than just charging straight on. Like preparing yourself with speed, scrolls of shielding, having many healing potions, free action, and so on. Now with stair cheating this is a trivial fight. You just get into range so that the boss detects you. If you are close to the stairs and the monster have no distance attack you just walk to the stairs. Alternatively, if you are some distance away you can just use PD/teleport which will usually bring you closer. Then you just stand on the stairs and wait for the boss to come since he usually follows you even if he is out of sight. When he appears fight until you get somewhat damaged. Use stairs. Rest. Go back. Attack. Repeat. Using this many boss fights become trivial, mechanic, and require no preparation or tactical planning. In the current system, even if the boss has 1000x as many HP as you or you are only doing a trivial amount of damage, as long as you can survive a single attack, you will eventually defeat the boss. This means that you can defeat the boss regardless of his and your own statistics. That is why it is cheating.

This does not work if the boss follows you upstairs. Unlike other monsters the boss will continue chasing you even if you PD away, possibly over the whole dungeon until you reach the wilderness map, which I think can create some very fun to play epic flights if you attack a boss you are not prepared for.

So in short, instead of simply mindlessly using the stairs to defeat monsters, you will have to prepare yourself more carefully. Stock up with potions and scrolls (or whatever is replacing them). Use divination spells. Prepare for a long and tough and interesting fight instead of taking simple time-outs to solve whatever is bothering you.

[ghostbuster]

I know how you could abuse the stairs. The problem is that the player can heal, while the monsters dont, which is totally unbalanced. But this method is definitely unusable if the monsters are healed when you reenter the level.

Concerning monsters following you. Why not, but I am not a big fan of that.
First, I think the player should have an opportunity to flee. "A long and interesting fight", you said. If you are really not enough prepared and that the monster is much more powerfull than you are, it will be probably a short and frustrating fight . It is better IMHO to let the player flee and to give him the opportunity to be more prepared, to gain experience, to have more potions, etc, in order to really have an interesting fight....
Second, this system can also be abused. In adom, for instance, it was a way to fight opponents by small groups. Only the monsters that were a couple of squares away from the stair did follow you and you could this way avoid to fight a large hord of monsters and break it into a smaller number of opponents...

[Smips]

I think I've come up with something here. Not a solution, but the two ways of implementing something that would work.

1) Monsters follow you up and down stairs. It's pretty obvious why this would solve the stair scumming issue, but it's a pretty major gameplay change.

2) Create a method for the game to determine if stair scumming is occurring and then creating a consequence. For instance, if the game sees your most recent actions have been using stairs between two levels and resting, then the next time you use them you fall down the stairs and become paralyzed for a number of turns. Otherwise, it is unfair to assume that if a player is trying to go upstairs, they are stair scumming.

[Grey]

Yeah, it is indeed very abusable in ADOM. Can also be used to draw a boss into an area where they're easier to fight. I don't think this would be such a big issue in TOME though, and there'd still be ways to escape. And to be honest, you're not that likely to have a monster next to you when going up the stairs. If you want to escape a boss you'll likely phase away and find the stairs - otherwise you'll be bombarded with ranged attacks, rushes, etc. The full heal on bosses is much better for stopping abuse.

[teachu2die]

while im in the mode of suggesting extreme and likely unpopular ideas: why not just completely respawn *all* monsters, every time, upon level entry?
would make stair dancing bosses or difficult enemies irrelevant. and it would not guarantee a safe escape onto the previously cleared level.

[Mithril]

I know how you could abuse the stairs. The problem is that the player can heal, while the monsters dont, which is totally unbalanced. But this method is definitely unusable if the monsters are healed when you reenter the level.

Concerning monsters following you. Why not, but I am not a big fan of that.
First, I think the player should have an opportunity to flee. "A long and interesting fight", you said. If you are really not enough prepared and that the monster is much more powerfull than you are, it will be probably a short and frustrating fight . It is better IMHO to let the player flee and to give him the opportunity to be more prepared, to gain experience, to have more potions, etc, in order to really have an interesting fight....
Second, this system can also be abused. In adom, for instance, it was a way to fight opponents by small groups. Only the monsters that were a couple of squares away from the stair did follow you and you could this way avoid to fight a large hord of monsters and break it into a smaller number of opponents...

1. The problem with simply healing the boss is as I stated before but I will clarify. Say that the boss is much better than you so that he will win 99% of fights between you. Neither of you have any outright killing attacks so reducing one of you to very low HP will take several turns. Now, with stairs cheating you have already won! You just have to repeat the fight on average 100 times! If you get very low HP, so there is a risk you will die from his next blow, you just use the stairs and rest until fully healed and wait for the bout when the rng will favor you.

2. A problem with methods that keep tracks if you use the stairs too often and strike you with a lightning bolt from a clear sky (or whatever) if you use them too often is that this is very, hm, strange and unrealistic.

The most realistic and I think interesting solution is that monsters can follow you up stairs. A theme in the game is that monsters and players function similarly regarding the mechanics. That monsters for some strange reason cannot use stairs breaks this in the game design.

If you attack a boss without having any PD scrolls so you cannot flee from him a couple of times, enabling an interesting flight, then I say let natural selection take its course! If the game is supposed to be safe for idiots then whole game must be rewritten! Adjust monster levels so that you never die from a fight and so on. No. Total newbies who cannot stand dying while learning to play should play on easy mode.

[Grey]

1. The problem with simply healing the boss is as I stated before but I will clarify. Say that the boss is much better than you so that he will win 99% of fights between you. Neither of you have any outright killing attacks so reducing one of you to very low HP will take several turns. Now, with stairs cheating you have already won! You just have to repeat the fight on average 100 times! If you get very low HP, so there is a risk you will die from his next blow, you just use the stairs and rest until fully healed and wait for the bout when the rng will favor you.

If the player is trying to scum like that then there's every chance the boss will be the lucky one. The player has less HP normally, and will run out of healing potions at some point (okay, next release will be different, but still...) Any SANE player will realise he's not good enough and go try to level up elsewhere. I really don't think this is in any way a problem.

As much as I like the idea of monsters using stairs, it certainly doesn't solve all the stair scumming problems, and it introduces a couple of abuses of its own. Having monsters fully restored when returning to a level gives some simulation of them healing up over time like the palyer would. It evens the playing field significantly, and makes anyone trying to abuse the system by stair-scumming a complete idiot.

[teachu2die]

As much as I like the idea of monsters using stairs, it certainly doesn't solve all the stair scumming problems, and it introduces a couple of abuses of its own. Having monsters fully restored when returning to a level gives some simulation of them healing up over time like the palyer would. It evens the playing field significantly, and makes anyone trying to abuse the system by stair-scumming a complete idiot.

i agree. there are so many reasons that monsters following you down stairs is needlessly complicated, not to mention extremely dangerous for the player. probably would be less-than-fun to code, to boot.
my question is - why not push it one step further? completely respawning all monsters on the level would eliminate mithril's concern of players repeatedly attempting to kill the boss under controlled circumstances, as they would have to track down the boss again each time.
it would also make the retreat to the previous level a non-guaranteed escape, as there would be new monsters to deal with on the previously cleared level. and, presumably, it might even cut down on load time a bit.

i see little advantage to having monsters save their locations on each level, even if they heal completely when the player leaves.

[Mithril]

1. The problem with simply healing the boss is as I stated before but I will clarify. Say that the boss is much better than you so that he will win 99% of fights between you. Neither of you have any outright killing attacks so reducing one of you to very low HP will take several turns. Now, with stairs cheating you have already won! You just have to repeat the fight on average 100 times! If you get very low HP, so there is a risk you will die from his next blow, you just use the stairs and rest until fully healed and wait for the bout when the rng will favor you.

If the player is trying to scum like that then there's every chance the boss will be the lucky one. The player has less HP normally, and will run out of healing potions at some point (okay, next release will be different, but still...) Any SANE player will realise he's not good enough and go try to level up elsewhere. I really don't think this is in any way a problem.

As much as I like the idea of monsters using stairs, it certainly doesn't solve all the stair scumming problems, and it introduces a couple of abuses of its own. Having monsters fully restored when returning to a level gives some simulation of them healing up over time like the palyer would. It evens the playing field significantly, and makes anyone trying to abuse the system by stair-scumming a complete idiot.

I was assuming that there was no use of healing potions and that the fight was protracted so that the boss could not kill the player in one or just a few blows. Just that without any extra help the player would lose most of the time, 99% or 80% or whatever, but using with stairs cheating he will win every time...

What problems are not solved by allowing monsters to use the stairs as player can do? What abuses are introduced? A design decision seems to have been that players and monster should function similarly so why not regarding stairs?