Saving CON! And undead while we're at it!

[HousePet]

Does anyone have any examples of this reduced build variability from making talent requirements use base stats?
Most classes only use one stat for talent requirements, and not building it just gimps you.

[malboro_urchin]

Does anyone have any examples of this reduced build variability from making talent requirements use base stats?
Most classes only use one stat for talent requirements, and not building it just gimps you.

Arcane Blade.

[HousePet]

Two words is a very vague example.

I guess if you wanted to take Arcane Destruction and Aegis at level 12, you would be short on stat points. But does anyone actually do that? You would have enough points by level 16 to do both and at that point of the game you aren't getting huge bonuses from your equipment.

A quick search of the character vault showed no examples of anyone rushing slot 4 talents in both Str or Mag.
Those that were taking talents they wouldn't meet the requirements for, would make them in a level or two.
As Arcane Blade would be the worst, and is only slightly affected, I'd say its a non issue.

[Effigy]

It's not hard to think of examples. An obvious one is any character that wants to take the Eternal Guard prodigy without taking 50 Con. Or a Summoner or a Necromancer that wants Through the Crowd without taking 50 Dex. Or any caster class that wants to take Armour Training without raising Str. Take 20 minutes and you could easily find 20 examples. Changing the stat requirements has a lot more impact than you guys seem to want to acknowledge. If the whole reason for changing it is "keeping a few +stat items is too tedious," I'm not convinced that it's worth changing. I'd much rather carry some +stat items that let me use the gear and talents I want than carry around item upgrades and unspent points while I wait to have the stats to use them.

[HousePet]

I was looking for examples of problems with the talent requirements, not prodigy requirements.
But if you want to discuss prodigies, getting a stat to 50 would take 1/4 of your total available stat points.
Bulwark, Sun Paladin and Demonologist (maybe?) should have enough points to spend in Con.
Summoner and Necromancer only have two stats they need to max, so there is no reason they couldn't get 50 Dex.
But if the criteria you have is not wanting to meet the requirements for something, then you may as well just say remove all requirements. If you can just bypass with items, there is no point having them.

[Effigy]

I would rather just remove the requirements, as I don't think it adds much strategic value to the game. But I expect a lot more pushback on that than just leaving the status quo.

I feel like this thread has gotten derailed. It started off very positive with some good changes proposed for making Con a valuable stat, and most people seemed to be in favor of those changes. Why not stick with that and see how it plays out.

[grobblewobble]

It's not hard to think of examples. An obvious one is any character that wants to take the Eternal Guard prodigy without taking 50 Con. Or a Summoner or a Necromancer that wants Through the Crowd without taking 50 Dex. Or any caster class that wants to take Armour Training without raising Str.

Those are not examples of builds that become impossible. If it were no longer possible to win the game with a sling archer (or some other race/class/strategy), now that would be an example of a build becoming impossible.

What these examples mean instead, are meaningful trade-offs. As it stands now, any character can choose any prodigy he likes. If there would be some restrictions on that, if it would require a real investment, I would see that as a very positive thing. It would mean more real choices and a greater variety of builds.

[Effigy]

Giving up any other prodigy you would want is already a meaningful sacrifice. Having to gimp your stats to get a given prodigy just means most people are going to stick with the standard options for their class and build diversity within a given class goes down. Is it possible to raise an unwanted stat in order to unlock something? Sure. Is it optimal? In most cases, no. And the "optimal" option is what most people will choose, which is what got us onto this whole tangent in the first place.

[HousePet]

Except that removing the use for building a non standard stat also means a loss of build diversity, as everyone will just go with the same 'optimal' stats.

[Effigy]

I'm talking about meaningful diversity, as in the kind that changes the way you play the game. Just putting points in a junk stat for unlocks isn't changing your gameplay.

[Atarlost]

Remember, with accuracy bonuses you can do damage with dex instead of strength if you're building for crits.

dex/cun/mag sun paladins are definitely currently viable. If they couldn't lift their weapons or wear armor they wouldn't be.
dex/cun/mag probably also works for arcane blades, and arcane blades have so many sustains that dex/will/mag is probably also reasonable. Non-staff ABs need strength mostly to qualify for gear.

dex/cun/will is probably reasonable for antimagic bulwarks and berserkers as much as antimagic is viable for anyone that isn't natively mindpower based.

Mindslayers have very little use for strength except to wield equipment, but it takes more strength to wield a vorutun great axe than to max weapon mastery.

Oozemancers have even less use for strength unless pursuing a specific prodigy, but they also don't suffer fatigue so massive armor builds are currently reasonable.

So long as archers have the sling trees that build will have no use for strength except to wear a shield.

dex/cun/con would be viable for berserkers if this con change went through. Probably marauders and bulwarks as well.

[edge2054]

dex/cun/mag sun paladins are definitely currently viable. If they couldn't lift their weapons or wear armor they wouldn't be.

They'd still be viable. They just wouldn't wear plate mail or use swords. They'd either run staff or daggers and have to use lighter armor.

[grayswandir]

I'm not even sure what this thread is about anymore.

I'm in favor of:

• The changes mentioned in the first post.
• Making stats from egos and artifacts far less common.
• Reducing all equipment stat requirements by, say, 2 per tier.

I like weird builds. It's just currently far, far too easy to get whatever stats you want. You can drop requirements entirely if you want to - it'd be pretty close to what we have now. I'd prefer it to be a bit more restrictive though, to allow strategic planning and such.

[edge2054]

I'm not even sure what this thread is about anymore.

I'm in favor of:

• The changes mentioned in the first post.
• Making stats from egos and artifacts far less common.
• Reducing all equipment stat requirements by, say, 2 per tier.

I like weird builds. It's just currently far, far too easy to get whatever stats you want. You can drop requirements entirely if you want to - it'd be pretty close to what we have now. I'd prefer it to be a bit more restrictive though, to allow strategic planning and such.

I'd be in favor of this.

It's not build viability that bothers me as much as the gear hoarding mini-game.

I wouldn't be in favor of ditching stat requirements completely though as they help guide new players (in theory) into investing in stats that will benefit their class.

[HousePet]

I'm not even sure what this thread is about anymore.

Its all about confusing you.

I'm in favour of buffing Con a little and nerfing Heroism life a little.
Boosting Con boosts everyone a little, but Ghouls more.
Nerfing Heroism nerfs non undead a little.
So overall it make Con more useful and undead less nerfed by lack of Infusions.

Oh and give Ghouls the no_breath flag...