Remove all potions.

[madmonk]

Admit it, madmonk. You just like exclamation points.

OK, I confess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kingvictory2003]

...and you know, I like that they're salable. I don't play ironman. I enjoy picking up piles of loot that I will never use and bringing it home to sell. I like the fact that I can feel good about getting dagger drops in spite of the fact that I would never use a dagger.

I'm there with you Sirrocco. If I get Sting on one of my heavy weapon wielders, it's far more palatable to turn it in for a pile of cash rather than toss it into the nearest cesspit. What weapons dealer would not want it? I mean come ON it's Sting!

I hear periodic complaints about too much gold--possibly with some merit, as I accumulated a bit more than 4000 gold on one of my arcane blades, but it took around a week of farming to get that. Not a trivial amount of time for people with certain jobs.

One way to allay the problem would be to add very expensive services that are nice to have, but certainly not necessary. One example from Zangband was the teleport-to-specific-level service of the Trump Tower (lol) for 1,000,000 gold. Not cheap, but nice in circumstances if you can't be bothered to dive from Angband 1 to 90, and have a surplus of gold. Perhaps if crafting is implemented, this could be a way to allow late-game characters start to enjoy some customization, either by learning crafting skills and/or using the services of the master craftsmen themselves.

[Grey]

That would encourage players to scum for gold, which would be bad.

[Sirrocco]

Grey - why? Why would it be bad?

What's up with this whole "OMG! OMG! OMG! scumming is BAD!" thing, anyway? I can understand attempts to avoid degenerate scumming - like preventing abuse of stairs, and making sure that consumables can't just trivialize plot-important encounters, but this would just be standard grinding, and this is a roguelike. It has grinding as a way to power built into it (blunted a bit in this version, perhaps, but still quite clearly there), and I don't see anything wrong with that. Everything you do in a roguelike game calls for an investment of patience and risk - and the thing that you risk is the stuff you've built up with previous patience and risk. If someone wants to spend a ton of time grinding for gold so that they can buy something that will give them some marginal benefit, let them. Sure, you wouldn't want to make such grinding mandatory, but people already get a benefit for grinding up to level 50 and for running around to make sure that they have really good gear instead of decent gear and so forth. People who like the slow, grinding game can go with that, and people who like the faster, riskier play can go with that - and honestly, I think the faster, riskier players seem to get further a lot of the time.

[kingvictory2003]

Again, well said Sirrocco.

There are obviously very different perspectives on how a character should be played, and that's perfectly as it should be. I think there should always be the option of playing how one wants to, as opposed to the "only way."

Let's take Ukruk as an example. Is he beatable? Yes, but not without significant preparation (unless I'm completely missing some chump tactics.) He's an OPTIONAL kill that gives what I presume is a non-gamebreaking reward. Not killing him does not involve extensive preparation, and advances the storyline as normal. The intention seems to be to let him knock you out and take the staff, but for those of us who enjoy taking him on for the thrill and for a nice-but-not-necessary reward--it's wonderful to have that option.

This is obviously not a totally black-and-white matter, as you obviously can't show up to the final battle with a jacknife and a molotov cocktail. Well, I suppose you could, but your chances of survival are next to nil. If that's your playstyle and you enjoy that, more power to you. That would be like having the perspective that not every character you make is destined for success, and let me just reiterate that there is nothing wrong with that. I personally like to think of every character I make as a potential winner, and thus try to maximize my chances of survival--thus, I will gather probably more than enough resources to sustain me through whatever crucible is in my way. I also enjoy searching for that one super rare item of uberness; just finding such an item brings a thrill before even using it.

[Grey]

Well it would have to be something optimal, not something deamed necessary or much better to have. Scumming in games is inevitable, but it shouldn't be actively encouraged. ToME4 has very little compared to its *bandian ancestors, and quite frankly it's far better for it.

[teachu2die]

errrm...how much less scumming does it have?
the last several games of vanilla i played, there was relatively little scumming - maybe a few times for stat restore potions or recall if the stores were out, and usually a bit of time spent around DL30-32 for a couple stat gain potions, and maybe some grinding at 90+ to round out your kit before taking on morgoth. in general, it's just charge ahead though.
many of my games of T4 still have involved moderately extensive scumming (partially out of necessity, partially out of...err, well, scummy behavior on my behalf ). scumming for rings to put that nice gem into, scumming for stability armor before attempting to take on the mummy, scumming the maze for passable daggers for a rogue, even occasional scumming for simple necessities like ID and basic healing potions. i don't find the scumming a particularly downplayed component at all. if any real anti-scumming war is to be waged, shops and drops, as well as items on the whole, need to be very seriously re-thought (particularly any kind of crafting element would basically have to be removed, and shops would maybe never restock).
personally, i think a modest amount of scumming/grinding is fine, and to be expected...