Preventing stairs cheating

[Mithril]

Also, I don't see why, in your pros and cons you keep calling this an 'abuse' or cheating.
The point of a change would be to turn this from something 'fishy' or 'cheap'(I don't think it's proper to call it cheating, as the game lets you do this by default, and doesnt' even suggest you should avoid doing it) to a valid tactic.
Tactical retreat SHOULD be a viable option, although with possible downsides. Monsters following would be the main one.

Yes, this is right, if the game does not disallow it, then it is a valid tactic. Obviously when playing a game one will try to play as well as possible within the rules. Which is why is should be prevented since it makes some parts of the game cheesy. Both from being too easy and from being "unrealistic".

Monster following seems fine to me. Going back to old level already gives you many advantages. A fully explored level where many monsters have been removed (although there may be some new random monsters). If the following monsters only appears when they would reach the stairs then you will be removed from their line of sight until they appear which means they cannot use distance weapons and you will have fewer monsters to deal with until those further away from the stairs appears.

Typical scenario: you go down some stairs and find yourself in a situation you cannot deal with or flee to the stairs from such a situation. You use the stairs to go up and then use a phase door/teleport scroll in order to get away from following monster if that is a problem.

[Shoob]

Another option that could be done is to move (and fully heal) the boss to a specific place if the player leaves the level (or random for random levels) and then give them 4-8 random escorts too, meaning it would be to your disadvantage to leave a level with a boss on it without defeating the boss first.

I suppose the same could go with monsters, it could heal monsters by 10*level.level or something when you change levels.

neither of these would have any significant impact on people who play the game normally (hmmm, I wonder if I can include myself in that group, oh well, I just did ), and would really only affect people who abuse the stairs to kill bosses.

[Smips]

I'm brand new to this game(but not to Roguelikes), so perhaps I can shed a slightly different light on the situation.

I feel that many of the suggestions here really are falling into the "This is a Roguelike, make it HARDER" category. Most of the suggestions presented either hinder or remove the option to flee the dungeon.

Not being allowed to leave if "in combat" is absurd to me. What if you're in a dungeon and either are beginning to find it too difficult for your level or are running low on supplies? I know, "You deserve to die, blah blah blah." No, you really don't. All that's being done is truncating the game and lowering the learning experience.

Monsters following you sounds nice, but levels repopulate. It would really suck to be killed by your pursuer because a bunch of cannon fodder clogged your path.

For instance, this situation happened to me last night. I was trudging my way through the forest at level 12. I'm new, so I don't know what level I should be or what to expect. Thus far, nothing is overly difficult and I can normally find a safe place to combat monsters. Eventually, I happened upon a vault. I've encountered them before and found them doable as long as the rest of the level was somewhat easy. So I opened the door and found a bee hive spawning level 12 bees(no big deal) and a pack of level 25-35 bears, one being elite. Perhaps in sole idea of open the vault was bad, however I still don't know every detail of the game so I did not know this. At this point, I assumed taking on these monsters was a bad idea and I would likely die if I tried to, so I immediately fled for the stairs. Periodically, I would stun the closest bear in a narrow corridor to slow them down, but other than that I kept moving to the stairs. Eventually, I made it and left the forest entirely.

With any of the suggestions implemented, I would have been done for. I'm sure some of you would say my character deserved to die because I was unprepared, but look at the situation from a newbie perspective. You learn more about the game from playing and progressing than you do from dying.

My suggestion? Implement a stair counter to prevent multiple uses of stairs without moving a certain number of spaces. If a character uses stairs 4 times without moving 50 spaces, then don't let them use stairs until they do move 50 spaces. Scumming is still possible like this, but every time they go up stairs after their limit of 4, they need to move 50 spaces. I know that would quickly turn me off of the idea. Also, those values are arbitrary. I'm sure they could be adjusted to suit the purpose better. The point is that the option to flee the dungeon is still there, but stair scumming is made horribly tedious.

[Mithril]

I do not think most suggestions include monster following you out of the dungeon in to the wilderness. Stair abusing from the wilderness into the first level of the dungeon is rarely a problem since the bosses are on the lowest level. Now, theoretically, with monsters following, you could lure the boss to the first level and abuse the stairs going outside. However, that that can be fixed by uniques being reset to their starting position if the player leaves the dungeon.

Allowing stair abusing, say 3 times as you suggest, assuming this could controlled somehow, would still mean that the player using this would get 3 times as many resources in fights against bosses and can recuperate from all bad effects while resting and reapply buffs 3 times etc, which is an enormous advantage for those using this.

If just using a stair without leaving the dungeon, then this still gives you many advantages even if the monsters follow you, see my last post.

If as a beginner you want to learn to play the game without dying constantly and permanently, then that is what easy mode is for.

[Smips]

Allowing stair abusing, say 3 times as you suggest, assuming this could controlled somehow, would still mean that the player using this would get 3 times as many resources in fights against bosses and can recuperate from all bad effects while resting and reapply buffs 3 times etc, which is an enormous advantage for those using this.

If just using a stair without leaving the dungeon, then this still gives you many advantages even if the monsters follow you, see my last post.

As I said, those numbers can be adjusted. Just allow the player to go back up the stairs after descending(so 2 stair uses) before the movement cooldown would need to be completed. I really don't see how this method would be difficult to implement nor how it has any ill effects(besides monsters not following you, which I do think is a cool idea).

If as a beginner you want to learn to play the game without dying constantly and permanently, then that is what easy mode is for.

What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.

Edit:
Also, I never suggested monsters following you to the wilderness. I simply meant if you're on Dlvl6 and the repopulated monsters on Dlvl1 getting in your way of escaping to the wilderness.

[Mithril]

Allowing stair abusing, say 3 times as you suggest, assuming this could controlled somehow, would still mean that the player using this would get 3 times as many resources in fights against bosses and can recuperate from all bad effects while resting and reapply buffs 3 times etc, which is an enormous advantage for those using this.

If just using a stair without leaving the dungeon, then this still gives you many advantages even if the monsters follow you, see my last post.

As I said, those numbers can be adjusted. Just allow the player to go back up the stairs after descending(so 2 stair uses) before the movement cooldown would need to be completed. I really don't see how this method would be difficult to implement nor how it has any ill effects(besides monsters not following you, which I do think is a cool idea).

If as a beginner you want to learn to play the game without dying constantly and permanently, then that is what easy mode is for.

What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.

Edit:
Also, I never suggested monsters following you to the wilderness. I simply meant if you're on Dlvl6 and the repopulated monsters on Dlvl1 getting in your way of escaping to the wilderness.

Even if you only can abuse stair one time that is still an enormous advantage against bosses. You in effect get double the number of hit points and so on and can recuperate from all bad effects and reapply buffs after resting while the bosses remains exactly as before.

Also, this method is "unrealistic" compared to monsters following you up stairs. Why is it that monsters cannot follow you up stairs and do not heal while you can and do? Why can you can only use the stairs a limited numbers of times in a time period?

Monster following still gives advantages to the player using the stairs. Going back to old level means a fully explored level where many monsters have been removed (although there may be some new random monsters). If the following monsters only appears when they would reach the stairs then you will be removed from their line of sight until they appear which means they cannot use distance weapons and you will have fewer monsters to deal with until those further away from the stairs appears.

Typical scenario: you go down some stairs and find yourself in a situation you cannot deal with or flee to the stairs from such a situation. You use the stairs to go up and then use a phase door/teleport scroll in order to get away from following monster if that is a problem.

[Smips]

Even if you only can abuse stair one time that is still an enormous advantage against bosses. You in effect get double the number of hit points and so on and can recuperate from all bad effects and reapply buffs after resting while the bosses remains exactly as before.

Also, this method is "unrealistic" compared to monsters following you up stairs. Why is it that monsters cannot follow you up stairs and do not heal while you can and do? Why can you can only use the stairs a limited numbers of times in a time period?

Monster following still gives advantages to the player using the stairs. Going back to old level means a fully explored level where many monsters have been removed (although there may be some new random monsters). If the following monsters only appears when they would reach the stairs then you will be removed from their line of sight until they appear which means they cannot use distance weapons and you will have fewer monsters to deal with until those further away from the stairs appears.

Typical scenario: you go down some stairs and find yourself in a situation you cannot deal with or flee to the stairs from such a situation. You use the stairs to go up and then use a phase door/teleport scroll in order to get away from following monster if that is a problem.

If your number of stairs uses is 2, you cannot abuse it without cooldown first. Going down one floor and back up is 2 uses, so you would need to cool down first.

I agree that my suggestion isn't very realistic(other than maybe your character realizing the stupidity of going up and down stairs countless times), however is a dragon walking up a staircase much better? That was a tad sarcastic, but you get my point. I don't think realism needs to be stressed quite as much as functionality. The monster following approach is the most realistic solution, but your "typical scenario" kind of turns me off. If that's what is typical, then all monster following will do is kill new players who haven't learned the tactic of "Flee, then use PD." Essentially for experienced players, the monster may as well have stayed on the previous level since you will be gone before it gets up the stairs.

[Mithril]

If your number of stairs uses is 2, you cannot abuse it without cooldown first. Going down one floor and back up is 2 uses, so you would need to cool down first.

I agree that my suggestion isn't very realistic(other than maybe your character realizing the stupidity of going up and down stairs countless times), however is a dragon walking up a staircase much better? That was a tad sarcastic, but you get my point. I don't think realism needs to be stressed quite as much as functionality. The monster following approach is the most realistic solution, but your "typical scenario" kind of turns me off. If that's what is typical, then all monster following will do is kill new players who haven't learned the tactic of "Flee, then use PD." Essentially for experienced players, the monster may as well have stayed on the previous level since you will be gone before it gets up the stairs.

Yes, having a cool down after each stair use would stop stair abusing against bosses. But then you cannot escape if you find yourself in a very unfavorable situation when going down stairs for the first time.

I do not know how the stairs look but since all monsters can enter all the same size corridors as humanoids I assume that no monsters are much larger than humanoids. See no reason why most monsters cannot use stairs if they can use the same size corridors as humanoids.

There are lots of situation where new players will die where experienced players will not. If that was not the case, then the game would be much less interesting since there is little to learn. That new players die frequently is a class feature of roguelikes. There are many other situations beside new players not knowing the value of always having a PD scroll. If we fix all such situations then game will be tame, not dangerous, and uninteresting. For those not liking constantly and permanently dying while learning there is already the solution of easy mode.

[Smips]

There are lots of situation where new players will die where experienced players will not. If that was not the case, then the game would be much less interesting since there is little to learn. That new players die frequently is a class feature of roguelikes. There are many other situations beside new players not knowing the value of always having a PD scroll. If we fix all such situations then game will be tame, not dangerous, and uninteresting. For those not liking constantly and permanently dying while learning there is already the solution of easy mode.

I understand and agree with this. I'm not saying the game should be made simple so that no one dies or that permanent death is a bad thing. Permanent death is one thing that makes Roguelikes great. My point is that there is no point in putting all the effort into coding monsters that traverse levels to follow you if everyone is just going to PD away from it. Besides, what's stopping people from luring monsters to a safe level and then PDing to rest while fighting? Sounds really similar to stair scumming, just at the cost of a PD scroll.

[edge2054]

Maybe we should just remove teleportation from the game also.

[Mithril]

There are lots of situation where new players will die where experienced players will not. If that was not the case, then the game would be much less interesting since there is little to learn. That new players die frequently is a class feature of roguelikes. There are many other situations beside new players not knowing the value of always having a PD scroll. If we fix all such situations then game will be tame, not dangerous, and uninteresting. For those not liking constantly and permanently dying while learning there is already the solution of easy mode.

I understand and agree with this. I'm not saying the game should be made simple so that no one dies or that permanent death is a bad thing. Permanent death is one thing that makes Roguelikes great. My point is that there is no point in putting all the effort into coding monsters that traverse levels to follow you if everyone is just going to PD away from it. Besides, what's stopping people from luring monsters to a safe level and then PDing to rest while fighting? Sounds really similar to stair scumming, just at the cost of a PD scroll.

There is a point since with following monsters since it prevents abusing stairs against bosses and other toughs monsters making fighting them trivially and unrealistically easy.

No, PD and teleport cannot be abused in the same way since some bosses will always travel towards you and get there before you can rest. Also, there PD and teleport also involve some danger, even if you have controlled phase door which is not always the case for non-mages, since new monster may have appeared where your teleport/PD and it may fizzle or only travel you a very short distance.

[ghostbuster]

I completely aggree with Smips that the player should be able to flee if he faces too powerful ennemies. This is IMO a normal way to experiment the game and I sincerely do not see what would the problem with that. I play roguelike for years and years and running to escape a powerful ennemy is a current and normal practise.

The problem is to use it as a tactic against powerful monsters, bosses, etc, by recovering peacefully, while they don't. This would be an abuse. I think there is a very simple solution for that. Whenever you enter a level, all monsters are 100% healed (and with 100% mana, stamina, with all spell CD reset, etc). Simple and efficient. You can escape and rest, but you gain no advantage in the fight to do that. All monsters are waiting for you.

[Mithril]

I completely aggree with Smips that the player should be able to flee if he faces too powerful ennemies. This is IMO a normal way to experiment the game and I sincerely do not see what would the problem with that. I play roguelike for years and years and running to escape a powerful ennemy is a current and normal practise.

The problem is to use it as a tactic against powerful monsters, bosses, etc, by recovering peacefully, while they don't. This would be an abuse. I think there is a very simple solution for that. Whenever you enter a level, all monsters are 100% healed (and with 100% mana, stamina, with all spell CD reset, etc). Simple and efficient. You can escape and rest, but you gain no advantage in the fight to do that. All monsters are waiting for you.

Just because abusing stairs may be possible in some roguelikes does not automatically mean that it is good and all roguelikes must allow it. It is certainly unrealistic. It is not fun if it makes the game trivial. As noted above you can still run away using stairs and a PD scroll, even if not completely risk free, if the monsters are allowed to follow you up stairs.

Regarding healing the monsters I discussed that in the first post in this thread. But I can repeat it. "Monsters will be fully healed if you leave a level. However, this has the disadvantage of still making it possible to use stairs cheating against groups of monsters where you kill of a few at a time each time you use the stairs. Also, even against powerful single monsters you can still use the stairs to try and try to kill them again and again in the hope that the rng will favor you eventually."

[teachu2die]

a quick thought -
none of this would be a problem if levels weren't persistent. really, what exactly is the advantage of persistent levels?

that said, i like the healing along w/ respawning idea.

[edge2054]

a quick thought -
none of this would be a problem if levels weren't persistent. really, what exactly is the advantage of persistent levels?

that said, i like the healing along w/ respawning idea.

Load time.

*edit* Also prevents scumming for stairs, vaults, pits, etc.