Melinda and Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

[Zonk]

I sort-of agree the 'you save her, she falls in love with you' thing feels forced and it doesn't really fit the rest of the game which is relatively moderen.

I also agree that having the only possible love interest be a woman is quite limtiing.
Not that love interests are needed, especially as honestly I don't think of ToME as a plot/storyline heavy game. I don't think the loss would be huge if the relationship with her was removed rather than simply adding more options.

However, having Melinda be replaced by a NPC of a random gender...would not work so well, IIRC. Isn't the point that they have kidnapper her to have her give BIRTH to demon lord though some special ritual?

Sure, demons and magic are involved, so it's pretty possible that a male could 'give birth' in this context but I think it would feel a bit less horror (it's meant to be horror, isn't it?) and a bit more...weird?

If you don't have a problem with that (or if I am just misunderstanding how the ritual is described..it can be changed), having her replaced with a random gender (and name) NPC who can be rescued and eventually become an adventurer/travelling companion (with no romance, or make it fairly optional) might be interesting.

Also - but this is more about 'realism' /verisimiltude rather than sensibilities - I find it quite odd how she is actually not very 'frail', for a non-adventurer.

She has A LOT of HP compared to the regular citizens of some towns, including guards.
I understand WHY - it's a similar reasoning as level scaling, to give the player a chance to complete the mission so she doesn't die if she gets in the AoE of a single spell but it's still weird.


So basically: I don't like the whole Melinda thing a lot and I feel it's more awkard than offensive or even 'old fashioned' (granted, I am a man so my vision of that might not be as 'nuanced').
I don't really dislike it, though.

I think it would NOT be a huge loss if the Melinda quest/storyline is replaced by something very different which could still involve rescuing people from a demon cult (it's a fairly classical 'pulp fantasy' storyline which IMHO is not intrinsically discriminating).

To me both 'no love interests' and 'love interests for all genders/orientations' (note that the game currently DOES allow women to romance Melinda) would be thematic improvements on the current situation;
I understand I am likely part of a minority since I *assume* most would think having no love interests at all might be...old-fashioned, too? Not sure really. My limited understanding is that lots of modern games have them. At least Bioware ones.

(Also, I'd rather not touch this too deeply but I feel mixing discussions of the portrayal of gender and ethnicity/race in fantasy doesn't really 'work' since they are quite different categories.

I thought the Orc thing that has been referenced could have been handled differently, but I understand it's a bit late to talk about that.

I'll just say that I am not a fan of having nonhuman races - which really, are more correctly described as species using a RW term - always be portrayed 'morally equivalent' to humans, misunderstood, or as effectively humans with minor physical differences and a different culture.
Nothing bad with doing that once in a while, and it CAN create interesting stories, but something you want the nonhumans to be actually nonhumans - which can sometimes mean that yes, they are monstrous enough that slaughtering them is justifiable in the game world.
Might be ironic for some, but I feel it's shallow to assume that they can be different in their physiques but not psychologies and basic moral outlook.)

[SabreCat]

I'm one of those folks for whom eye-rolling tropes like damsels in distress have a direct impact on my enjoyment of the game. +1 to randomized skin tones, more romance options (or none at all, if Melinda's subplot is likely to be the depth we'll get), and better agency for the Melinda character!

Even more important than random NPC skin tones would be the ability to choose the player character's skin tone. We have a small assortment of cosmetic options like red hair and dwarf beards, but letting me make an olive-skinned Cornac or ebony Dwarf would be badass.

[Grey]

I feel like you can worry less about ethnic cultures in a fantasy game with non-human races, although then there's the risk of human == white and non-human == non-white.

Halflings are clearly the white people of Maj'Eyal.

[Zonk]

I'm one of those folks for whom eye-rolling tropes like damsels in distress have a direct impact on my enjoyment of the game. +1 to randomized skin tones, more romance options (or none at all, if Melinda's subplot is likely to be the depth we'll get), and better agency for the Melinda character!

Even more important than random NPC skin tones would be the ability to choose the player character's skin tone. We have a small assortment of cosmetic options like red hair and dwarf beards, but letting me make an olive-skinned Cornac or ebony Dwarf would be badass.

Do you LITERALLY mean just skin tone or are you implying characters could also have different facial/physical features like on average different ethnicities?

In the first case, that could be done really easily (golem alchemists work something like that), but if the idea is to portray multiple ethnicities it might look very awkard. The base Cornac sprite is pretty Caucasian-ish, isn't it?
Unless the tone differences are minor. Though your mention of a 'ebony' dwarf makes me think that's not what you are asking.

I think I once tried *LOTS OF TIME AGO* to make a sprite for Sholtar, the tanned/dark-skinned humans, by taking the Cornac one and doing some selective darkening and, in my opinion, the final result was alright. But then my goal was to make them look slightly suntanned rather than 'African' or even Mediterannean.

In the second case, well, that's quite a bit more work (but not a HUGE issue if players were willing to help) and while for humans it might be nice...honestly I am not sure it makes sense that all nonhuman races would have similar skin tone ranges as humans.
Especially as the nonhumans seem to be focused in one place while humans are more spread out.

I agree that halflings/elves/dwarves being so 'white' could be seen as biased and turn some people off, though. And it seems lazy.

I'd rather make them look less human than more by giving them the same ethnicity/looks variance as humans though...

EDIT In hindsight, that was very easy to misunderstand, might have written it poorly.
I mean that I'd rather give humans some variance and make them less 'white' than simply have all other races have all kind of ethnicities even where it doesn't quite make sense.

So rather than having white and black elves, have elves that don't 'fit' with either of these (shallow/broad)categories. As long as they manage to not look like any real world people, I don't think that would be a serious issue...

[edge2054]

I'm one of those folks for whom eye-rolling tropes like damsels in distress have a direct impact on my enjoyment of the game. +1 to randomized skin tones, more romance options (or none at all, if Melinda's subplot is likely to be the depth we'll get), and better agency for the Melinda character!

Even more important than random NPC skin tones would be the ability to choose the player character's skin tone. We have a small assortment of cosmetic options like red hair and dwarf beards, but letting me make an olive-skinned Cornac or ebony Dwarf would be badass.

Talked to Darkgod about this more this morning. There will be more development for the Melinda character that will give her more agency. He'd have to comment to say more, not sure how much he wants the surprise spoiled. He also has a 'male Melinda' subplot on his todo list. So there will be a male romantic option added to the game at some point.

I think some skin tone options would also be nice. We can already run around as horrors using custom tiles so rather or not that's 'catering to minorities' or 'defies the lore' is beside the point. Really what matters is if Rex feels like drawing them and if we can find someone that feels like implementing the UI code.

And I imagine both of those are possible. So we'll see

[Ivels]

Another oppressive trope down for the count. We're building a better world here folks, one irrelevant side quest at a time.

[0player]

Another oppressive trope down for the count. We're building a better world here folks, one irrelevant side quest at a time.

The things that are easiest to change are, well, easiest to change.

Talked to Darkgod about this more this morning. There will be more development for the Melinda character that will give her more agency. He'd have to comment to say more, not sure how much he wants the surprise spoiled. He also has a 'male Melinda' subplot on his todo list. So there will be a male romantic option added to the game at some point.

I think some skin tone options would also be nice. We can already run around as horrors using custom tiles so rather or not that's 'catering to minorities' or 'defies the lore' is beside the point. Really what matters is if Rex feels like drawing them and if we can find someone that feels like implementing the UI code.

And I imagine both of those are possible. So we'll see

*fangirls*

[Mankeli]

Talked to Darkgod about this more this morning. There will be more development for the Melinda character that will give her more agency. He'd have to comment to say more, not sure how much he wants the surprise spoiled. He also has a 'male Melinda' subplot on his todo list. So there will be a male romantic option added to the game at some point.

I think some skin tone options would also be nice. We can already run around as horrors using custom tiles so rather or not that's 'catering to minorities' or 'defies the lore' is beside the point. Really what matters is if Rex feels like drawing them and if we can find someone that feels like implementing the UI code.

And I imagine both of those are possible. So we'll see

Any chance that the changes would include something that would actually make it worthwhile to enter the said Crypt in the first place? Myself and many others have complained for some time that there is literally zero reason to ever enter to Crypt if your goal is to win the game: On higher diffuculties, the Crypt is a death sentence and even on normal it's hard enough that the payoff really isn't worth it. I mean, the great rewards I've gotten from her father include primal infusion (lol) and um, I don't even remember the others because they have probably entered the trans mog chest really fast (I haven't done it for a quite a while because of the reasons stated).

Currently, the rational thing to do is the avoid the Crypt always if you are looking to actually win the game.

[Hogulus]

The way I feel about it is, yeah, Melinda's a stock-standard Damsel in Distress™. Fantasy universes have those, just like they have dragons, and greedy dwarves, and clever halflings, and sadistic demons, and elves who've pissed everyone else off. ToME's lore is full of strong women of all types, from wise mages (Linaniil) to zealous warriors (Aeryn) to principled healers (Astelrid, coming in 1.3!). ToME does usually twist the standard tropes a little (dwarves drove treasure-hoarding dragons to extinction, elves are very humble over past mistakes rather than very snooty towards' other races for THEIR mistakes, demons are organized and don't have a problem with anyone BUT your planet's inhabitants, halflings used their cleverness to become detestable little shits rather than loveable scamps), and maybe the Melinda quest could use a few tweaks in that regard, but I don't think having a single kidnapped woman to rescue is in any way a problem.

However, having Melinda be replaced by a NPC of a random gender...would not work so well, IIRC. Isn't the point that they have kidnapper her to have her give BIRTH to demon lord though some special ritual?

Sure, demons and magic are involved, so it's pretty possible that a male could 'give birth' in this context but I think it would feel a bit less horror (it's meant to be horror, isn't it?) and a bit more...weird?

If you don't have a problem with that (or if I am just misunderstanding how the ritual is described..it can be changed), having her replaced with a random gender (and name) NPC who can be rescued and eventually become an adventurer/travelling companion (with no romance, or make it fairly optional) might be interesting.

In the Ashes of Urh'Rok lore, Ssashy'Kaish (or however that's spelled) specifies that, technically, any fleshy and sentient being could work for Kryl-Feijan's ritual. A devotee brought Melinda because Ssashy wanted someone who'd be missed, so her lover's first act when reborn would be something that'd greatly upset natives to Eyal; Melinda, being the beautiful, sweet daughter of a powerful, well-known merchant, fit the bill rather nicely. You could even make the argument that the Damsel in Distress trope (or its equivalent in news media, "Missing White Woman Syndrome") is one of the in-universe reasons why the cult picked Melinda - Ssashy knew her abduction would disturb Last Hope, and her subsequent death would make people feel helpless despair. So, yeah, a man could work for the ritual, but he'd have to be someone who'd be missed just as much...

I'll just say that I am not a fan of having nonhuman races - which really, are more correctly described as species using a RW term - always be portrayed 'morally equivalent' to humans, misunderstood, or as effectively humans with minor physical differences and a different culture.
Nothing bad with doing that once in a while, and it CAN create interesting stories, but something you want the nonhumans to be actually nonhumans - which can sometimes mean that yes, they are monstrous enough that slaughtering them is justifiable in the game world.
Might be ironic for some, but I feel it's shallow to assume that they can be different in their physiques but not psychologies and basic moral outlook.)

I tried to do this with demons. Sure, they USED to have a glorious, shining civilization, but nowadays they've got nothing to live for but trying to get revenge on a race that (Caldizar excepted) doesn't exist anymore. A big part of this is how their own history went; they were united into one planet-wide society before their civilization even got off the ground, and have undergone countless willing alterations both to themselves and to purpose-made beasts (i.e. dollegs), so they might have looked at Eyal, failed to fathom the idea that Eyalites aren't all working together for one common goal, and assume that the non-Sher'Tul races are magically-engineered decoys or servants. Strange to us, sure, but for them, inter-species violence was the cultural equivalent of early-childhood growing pains, and surely a planet that's still in that stage couldn't have made the great and powerful Sher'Tul... Similarly, the mobs populating the new dungeon in 1.3 may be pitiable, but they're wholly incompatible with modern-day society for several reasons.

[Zonk]

Thanks for the reply Hogulus; I had not gotten to that part of Ashes of Uh'rok yet, I think. It does make sense, and it's a good thing (for story flexibility) if it means Melinda can be replaced by anyone who's really well-loved.
Also the whole connection with despair makes me think of something Afflicted-like rather than 'pure'demonic power...

On the demons and my 'nonhumans do not HAVE to be ethically equivalent to humans' opinion - well, yes, but demons do not quite fit: generally they do NOT get the 'just misunderstood/down on their luck/evil because of their culture' treatment even in modern fantasy

I mean: people sometimes criticize the trope that orcs could be either not-people or people so horrible that you can just kill them on sight, all of them, even the children, but they will VERY rarely complain about demons, because of the whole concept of 'supernatural evil'.

Hence the whole 'Orc Genocide' issue time ago.
If it was the 'Demon Genocide' I don't think there would have been many complaints.
(And yes, I understand it was not all about ethics but also about the body horror)

My point was that it's not bad if some non-demon races get a similar treatment some (not all)of the time. Otherwise they end up just being humans who have an unusual look and culture, but that's it.

(semi-OT but I really hope I will have the time to play through Ashes Uh'Rok eventually, both the lore and gameplay seemed very good but I just did not have the time to get very far through it, did not unlock Demonologist either )

Back to Melinda herself and sorry for the earlier derailing: I don't think many people think that 'rescue someone' is a bad trope, it's mostly that when it's ALWAYS a woman - who is described as very beautiful and is shown as naked/sexualized AND when that woman always falls in love with they character if they make even a very small attempt to court her... well, I can definetely see how it makes people uncomfortable.

EDIT And of course, the issue that she gets to be romanced by both males and females (barring undead, IIRC), but there isn't a 'male Melinda' for straight women and gay men

[HousePet]

Skin tone is such a superficial trait, like most supposedly 'racial' traits.
Do we really need to encourage artificial divisions for the sake of political correctness?

[Delmuir]

Skin tone is such a superficial trait, like most supposedly 'racial' traits.
Do we really need to encourage artificial divisions for the sake of political correctness?

Well, one has to pick at least one skin-tone, and the chosen skin-tone is fleshy-pink for all. That's not arbitrary or insignificant.

I say we make every skin-tone purple and be done with it, but the suggestion that it's purely for the sake of political correctness is unfair. The "caucasian" as default is not insignificant if you're not white.

I'm not advocating for political correctness or social justice, for the record. I find that position highly dubious.

Having said that, I'm not opposed to the Melinda, damsel in distress quest. Not every game, every story, etc., has to meet some model of perfect egalitarianism and look like the united colors of benetton. In this game though, it's a weird, unnecessary quest that fits into that trope. Why does it even exist? That's what makes it odd and worth discussing.

Again, I don't think it's a huge deal and I hope this discussion doesn't blow up into some internet, rampage of social justice warriors, contrarians, etc.

It probably will though...

[spottedshroom]

Agreed, but I feel like avoiding the worst reductive tropes is the best way to encourage women and minorities to get involved.

Just out of curiosity: Do you think that because, allegedly, there is a bias in how women are portrayed in video games (and to a certain degree I would agree that there is), then it follows that there can be absolutely no weak, "tropish" women characters in, let's say, ToME? Because I think your posts could be interpreted that way.

There certainly can be. There are now. I just think it would be a better game without them.

[anonymous000]

I am a Chinese, and I don't care about Chinese not being represented in the game.

I find the discussion about "proper representation of ethnic minorities" rather ridiculous. Who says the ethnic minorities want to be represented in the game anyway? When I create a character in ToME4, the thing I think about is "this is a Cornac/Dwarf/Yeek" etc, rather than go mad about "how come my character doesn't look like a Chinese at all" and rant about darkgod being a supporter of white-supremacy.

The political correctness mentioned in this thread reek of self-righteousness, and I feel a very narrow sense of justice is not being only forced down the throat of caucasian (whom I believe this the ethnic majority here), but also to ethnic minorities like me as well. Isn't creating artificial divisions among human race (or humanoid races in ToME4) also a form of ideological segregation?

Nonetheless, the choice in skin tone could be an appealing cosmetic option to some people though.

[donkatsu]

I really only see two valid sides to this: you want minority representation/strong female characters/what have you or you don't care about political correctness and you just want to murder stuff and take their loot. Both of these are perfectly reasonable preferences. What I find interesting is when people get all up in arms in defense of the status quo. Why is it so important to you that all humanoids must be light-skinned, or that Melinda must be a trophy? The best counterargument is "it's too much work and I don't want to bother" but most of the people in this thread wouldn't be the ones doing the work anyway. The actual reason is probably just that they feel morally threatened and the natural response to such a perceived threat is to lash out. Fight that instinct; it just makes you sound silly.