Preventing over the top skill point juggling

[Suslik]

Don't throw tantrums for no reason.

whoa learn some manners

You want to add 50 hp to just rogue and berserker? That's called an ugly and inelegant solution. Plus, it doesn't actually solve anything. If you don't believe me, make a level 1 rogue on insane in the test version, don't drown anything, don't use a wand of conjuration/mindblast torque as a crutch, give yourself a +hp item, movement and shielding infusions via console and see how many runs it will take you to get through the t1s.

I don't claim to be on the level of players who clear insane, but those types of exercises (don't drown anything, don't buy a torque/wand) ended up in frustration.

add 50hp to any melee character. maybe add 100hp to fully-melee characters like rogue/maraduer/bulwark/berserker and 50hp to semi-melee characters like wyrmic.

you want to make a bet? i clear t1's with these additions on insane/roguelike on any class you want and you.. wait why should i even bother, you don't decide/code anything anyway.

[supermini]

add 50hp to any melee character. maybe add 100hp to fully-melee characters like rogue/maraduer/bulwark/berserker and 50hp to semi-melee characters like wyrmic.

you want to make a bet? i clear t1's with these additions on insane/roguelike on any class you want

Be my guest. I find it quite amusing that you think hp is the problem with meleeing, despite all evidence to the contrary.

wait why should i even bother, you don't decide/code anything anyway.

Oh snap, you got me there.

[Suslik]

well i'd gladly make a bet if you were darkgod or anyone who can actually change anything. but why should i even waste my time to prove anything to you?

btw i clearly stated that hp is not the only problem. for me, absent infusion slots and crappy starter gear are what can be called the most major ones. well apparently they won't make clearing t1's on insane a breeze. heck, why should they make the most difficult level a breeze? these additions will simply equalize(more or less) melees and casters during first 10 levels or so.

[supermini]

well i'd gladly make a bet if you were darkgod or anyone who can actually change anything. but why should i even waste my time to prove anything to you?

I don't really care either way. I can't prove it to you that you have misconceptions about how things work in a forum post, especially if you start reacting with tantrums: "don't tell me how things work, I made 400 characters". If you think your hp "fix" is a good one, go test it. That's the only way to know.

My prediction is that you get obliterated by a rare/randboss snake in melee range 99 times out of a 100 because they will blind, stun and confuse you to death and they won't care if you have 200 or 300 hp. You won't have any class abilities to fight back with because you will be level 1 (no drowning). You won't be able to just kill them from range (no torque/wand crutches).

[grobblewobble]

I am against allowing full respec. If you allow that, there will no longer be any real difference between any two characters with the same race and class. They can all do exactly the same things.

Not true, because of gear, and because of all the decisions which are not talents (like going Antimagic, you will NOT be able to re-spec that), and because of talents which you're not allowed to modify ever (Escorts, Stone Alchemy, Solipsism, etc.).

Okay yes, anti-magic is a choice that would still differentiate characters. But items are really a minor factor compared to class points. And escort trees too.

Take the archmage, for example. You can specialize in four kinds of damage or combinations. The possibilities for variation are endless.

What really defines an archmage is his talent specialization. With full respecs, specialization is no longer really possible. What one archmage can do, any other archmage can then do too if he respecs. If you allow full respec, any two archmages will look and feel practically the same. Well okay, maybe one finds an item that the other didn't find. Maybe one of them gets stone alchemy. But those are only minor differences. All the interesting variety, the cool and different ways to build your character, will be gone. The whole purpose of having a talent system in the first place (variety) is undermined.

And for what gain? If the goal is to make the game easier for experienced players who only play on nightmare and beyond, surely there are other ways to achieve that?

[SageAcrin]

The problem is, this is an issue that is being debated if it is actually an issue, with the answer involving a huge overhaul of the game.

Generally speaking, it sounds like high effort, low payoff incarnate as a redesign decision.

If there's not a simple solution, it's probably not worth doing at this point.

I still like the idea of putting actives on one turn CD when you change their levels, though.

[Orangeflame]

Back on the topic of re-specs...
Full Respec - I'm not too keen on this. As others have pointed out, a build is largely defined by what it invests in, so even one full respec would be game-changing. On another thread, someone suggested that the Eidolon could offer a full respec, and this wouldn't offer the endless (and tiring) repeatability of a 50-turn stun or going to the world map.
In-Combat - I think we're mostly all together on this: some measure against putting 4 points in a skill whenever needed. Putting the talent on cooldown when points are added to it is agreeable to me.
Out-of-Combat - As it is, we can see what our currently stored points can buy. If I have 7 generics sitting around, I can see what a T4 skill looks like at 5/5. Is this optimal? Not really, but I don't think it has to be fixed.

Perhaps someone with some addons under their belt could give us an addon for those who want a full-respec, so those of us who do not can go without?

[Doctornull]

What really defines an archmage is his talent specialization.

Not early. Early on, the average Archmage is tri-beam, because he has to survive levels 1, 2 and 3 before he can unlock t2 talents and so on.

Allowing full re-spec actually INCREASES the expected diversity of Archmagi -- because now you have a guy who can drop Flame and Lightning once he unlocks Ice and Stone. No more tri-beam default.

With full respecs, specialization is no longer really possible. What one archmage can do, any other archmage can then do too if he respecs. If you allow full respec, any two archmages will look and feel practically the same.

I think that the opposite is true

With full re-spec, you'll be able to really individualize each character, rather than keeping those same exact early-game crutch talents on everyone forever.


- - -

With respect to one-off re-spec, IMHO that goes against the idea of allowing deep experimentation. My goal with full re-spec is primarily allowing experimentation (and allowing the player to fix occasional normal human screw-ups). Allowing re-spec once per game is going to reward MAINLY those who plan ahead and want to cheese the system in a specific way. I have nothing against people getting their cheese -- it's a single player game, the point is to have fun with it -- but they're not my primary audience.

My primary audience are people who do NOT read spoilers, who do NOT write spreadsheets to plan their characters, who want to try stuff out and see how it works in play rather than theory-crafting.

[donkatsu]

The problem isn't with the respec system, it's with needing crutches for certain classes on higher difficulties. This is just one of them. I stop doing this as soon as I get a character running because it's tedious and boring.

If you think this is too tedious, simply don't do it. That's why this is not a problem.

The "I don't do it, so it isn't a problem" argument has never convinced anybody.

Cycling through 50 staffs of channeling was too tedious. I didn't do it. It was still a problem, and was removed.
Mass orc baby slaughter was too tedious. I didn't do it. It was still a problem, and was removed.
Sludgenest grinding was too tedious. I didn't do it. It was still a problem, and was removed.

Effectively getting all your talent points at level 20 instead of level 50 is not as gamebreaking as perma-0 cooldown spells or unlimited experience and loot, but if your... "reason" is that it's optional, that's a terrible reason.

edit: okay, just read the 3 pages of discussion that went on after the quoted post because said post was bogus, but it seems supermini has at least retreated from the completely insane stance of "this is not a problem at all" to the more defensible, "solving this problem is too hard", so I'm done here.

edit edit: Amusingly, just now I recalled someone defending instant-activate equipment with an argument along the lines of "but Elandar is impossible to beat as class X without 50 hats of earthrunes!", which everyone proceeded to dismiss because it was the same inane argument that's being presented here. Having 50 hats of earthrunes was removed, and class X was buffed to not be completely terrible instead.

[grobblewobble]

What really defines an archmage is his talent specialization.

Not early. Early on, the average Archmage is tri-beam, because he has to survive levels 1, 2 and 3 before he can unlock t2 talents and so on.

It's very much possible to survive the early game without the full tribeam. It makes you slightly weaker to have only part of the tribeam, but some people do it anyway, because it is rewarded later.
But if you allow full respecs, every archmage really will start out as tri-beam. Because the incentive to do anything else is taken away.

The experimentation you talk about is exactly how the game motivates you to start new characters. It adds replay value. It makes you want to start over and try something else. If you can try everything you ever wanted to try with one and the same character, people will waste much less time playing TOME. That must of course be prevented.

[ZyZ]

I still like the idea of putting actives on one turn CD when you change their levels, though.

I will still have maxed though form (archer) with only one skill point and this will give me significant advantage. Now you know it too so there is a good chance you will "exploit it" just because you can. It is silly to restrain yourself because clearly game design encourages me to do it. We get small rewards for (literally) wasting our time. Press 'p', juggle points, close window and voil? instant gratification ! You just hit something harder.

Bad design is bad. Burn it to the ground and start again

[SageAcrin]

Juggling points in and out of sustains before activating them:

A: Takes far less time than juggling out of actives.

B: Generally has far less impact than juggling actives.

It's not nearly as large of a problem for perfectionists, makes a more normal player feel like they're missing out less if they skip it, and certainly doesn't justify overhauling a large part of the game...

[grayswandir]

On another thread, someone suggested that the Eidolon could offer a full respec, and this wouldn't offer the endless (and tiring) repeatability of a 50-turn stun or going to the world map.

I really like this idea. If you're dead anyway, why not use the opportunity to try out a different build? Plus, it doesn't interfere with the mainline roguelike playthroughs at all.


I don't like the idea of infinite full respecs, I'd like it to be limited in some way.

Having 1 or 2 non-guaranteed respec artifacts might be a good way to go - they'd be no more disruptive that Blood of Life, and would be really fun to find.

Maybe clearing a farportal could grant you 1 respec point. It's risky, and all that farportal energy stuff serves as a good thematic reason.

I think I'd prefer some sort of system where you could just delete talent points from talents and then get them back 2 levels later. Sort of like your fighting capabilities go down while you're trying to retrain your abilities.

[Suslik]

Allowing full re-spec actually INCREASES the expected diversity of Archmagi -- because now you have a guy who can drop Flame and Lightning once he unlocks Ice and Stone. No more tri-beam default.

wrong. one lvl50 guy will respec flame and lightning to ice, then to stone, then to wildfire, then to aether and that's it. no more reasons to create other guys since you have tried everything on that one. but that's not a problem since dg explicitly stated in skype that full respec for free is never gonna happen which i had no doubt about.

You won't have any class abilities to fight back with because you will be level 1 (no drowning). You won't be able to just kill them from range (no torque/wand crutches).

then give them archery talent and a bow with like +10 elemental damage. with movement infusion, shield and healing infusion(new ones are instant) you can easily farm normal mobs, kill most rares and if you do find someone you can't kill at this level(doomed, oozemancer, solipsist, bulwark) just flee and return later. i don't play insane but with 200 starting hp, a bow with ele dmg and those infusions any character can do nightmare t1's reliably even without using any class abilities. after t1's these additions won't matter anyway. and i have no problem with insane not being reliable ever. as a side note : i never ever used a torque, wand crutch(don't even know what that is), any survavability talents except those granted by thief escorts, never drowned townsfolk for exp and feel just fine on nightmare. and i'm sure it'll be doable on insane as well, if you have anything good to bet i can prove it with a video.

[Mankeli]

No matter what the restriction is, if full respec is allowed with no cost other than time it *will* become yet another tedious crutch for higher difficulties, no doubt about it.

Yeah, I'm afraid of this too.

some people claim that since you can abuse drowning townsfolk anyway, skill point reallocation abuse should be ignored altogether. instead of solving the root problem that forces people to use abusing strategies AND fix abusing strategies themselves, people prefer do nothing because fixing only one of those 2 is apparently not going to do any good.

This is a pretty good summary so far IMO.

With respect to one-off re-spec, IMHO that goes against the idea of allowing deep experimentation.

My primary audience are people who do NOT read spoilers, who do NOT write spreadsheets to plan their characters, who want to try stuff out and see how it works in play rather than theory-crafting.

As I explained in my post, these goals can be achieved fairly well without complete respeccing too by, for example, adding virtual talent points that you can't actually use in combats but which allow you to see what skill does what. So respeccing isn't the only option to reduce the need for spoilers.

The "I don't do it, so it isn't a problem" argument has never convinced anybody.

Cycling through 50 staffs of channeling was too tedious. I didn't do it. It was still a problem, and was removed.
Mass orc baby slaughter was too tedious. I didn't do it. It was still a problem, and was removed.
Sludgenest grinding was too tedious. I didn't do it. It was still a problem, and was removed.

Effectively getting all your talent points at level 20 instead of level 50 is not as gamebreaking as perma-0 cooldown spells or unlimited experience and loot, but if your... "reason" is that it's optional, that's a terrible reason.

This is what I was trying to say all along, although you probably said it better, so thank you.