Here is another version with the talent consolidated more:
Doesn't contain Advanced Pyro or Charged, as those need better design first.
I recommend disabling other addons when using this, as a couple of mine will stop Auras/Beyond the Flesh from functioning. (as I moved those from triggering in useEnergy() to actBase().)
Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
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Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Had a thought regarding Advanced Pyro/Electro categories and the Spiking Shields issue.
I'm thinking we could remove the spiking from the shields and move it to a new talent that would be in slot 1 of the locked advanced talent.
These talents would be something like these:
Transcendent Telekinesis: active. Duration 10, long cooldown.
Increases your physical damage and penetration.
Adds disarm to all telekinetic damage.
Increases radius of Kinetic Aura by 1 or adds Kinetic Aura damage to normal weapon attacks.
Spikes Kinetic Shield.
Mindlash also inflicts stun.
Kinetic Leech also puts enemies to sleep.
Transcendent Pyrokinesis: active. Duration 10, long cooldown.
Increases your fire/cold damage and penetration.
Reduces cooldowns on all Thermal talents.
Increases radius of Thermal Aura by 1 or adds Thermal Aura damage to normal weapon attacks.
Spikes Thermal Shield.
Pyrokinesis also inflicts Flameshock.
Thermal Leech also reduces enemy damage.
Transcendent Electrokinesis: active. Duration 10, long cooldown.
Increases your lightning/mind damage and penetration.
Reduces cooldowns on all Charged talents.
Increases radius of Charged Aura by 1 or adds Charged Aura damage to normal weapon attacks.
Spikes Charged Shield.
Brainstorm also inflicts Blindness.
Charged Leech also inflicts confusion.
Only one Transcendent buff would be allowed active at once. Transcendent Telekinesis would remove Forcefield. If removing Forcefield is an issue, I think we could move the extra element blocking from Absorption Mastery into each individual shield to unlock as you level them, and Forcefield could be placed in the 4th slot of Absorption.
I'm thinking we could remove the spiking from the shields and move it to a new talent that would be in slot 1 of the locked advanced talent.
These talents would be something like these:
Transcendent Telekinesis: active. Duration 10, long cooldown.
Increases your physical damage and penetration.
Adds disarm to all telekinetic damage.
Increases radius of Kinetic Aura by 1 or adds Kinetic Aura damage to normal weapon attacks.
Spikes Kinetic Shield.
Mindlash also inflicts stun.
Kinetic Leech also puts enemies to sleep.
Transcendent Pyrokinesis: active. Duration 10, long cooldown.
Increases your fire/cold damage and penetration.
Reduces cooldowns on all Thermal talents.
Increases radius of Thermal Aura by 1 or adds Thermal Aura damage to normal weapon attacks.
Spikes Thermal Shield.
Pyrokinesis also inflicts Flameshock.
Thermal Leech also reduces enemy damage.
Transcendent Electrokinesis: active. Duration 10, long cooldown.
Increases your lightning/mind damage and penetration.
Reduces cooldowns on all Charged talents.
Increases radius of Charged Aura by 1 or adds Charged Aura damage to normal weapon attacks.
Spikes Charged Shield.
Brainstorm also inflicts Blindness.
Charged Leech also inflicts confusion.
Only one Transcendent buff would be allowed active at once. Transcendent Telekinesis would remove Forcefield. If removing Forcefield is an issue, I think we could move the extra element blocking from Absorption Mastery into each individual shield to unlock as you level them, and Forcefield could be placed in the 4th slot of Absorption.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Really haven't watched this thread too closely but, HousePet, I like that spike shield idea.
While I have no problems with shields a lot of people seem to be put off by them, so having the shield spikes in optional tree might make the class more appealing to many.
While I have no problems with shields a lot of people seem to be put off by them, so having the shield spikes in optional tree might make the class more appealing to many.
Stronk is a potent combatant with a terrifying appearance.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
BTW: It looks like DarkGod is adding this to 1.2 and I'm not sure if he will wait until this is finished.
So I'd like to politely whip people into doing testing on this.
I'd be very upset if it got added in an unfinished state.
So I'd like to politely whip people into doing testing on this.
I'd be very upset if it got added in an unfinished state.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
This is a really neat idea, but it is currently also very buggy. Feedback based on the version in git:
-Projection Mastery increases damage way too much (spiked auras doing 4-5 times more damage with 5/5 points invested than with 0/5).
-Kinetic Leech restores about 10 times as much psi as the other leeches.
-Quick as Thought's description states that it increases your "physical speed," whatever that is.
-Edit: You might also want to have a look at Reshape Armor. It was adding 22 armor for me at Willpower 62, which seems like a lot for something that can be added to 6 different items.
Balance suggestions:
-The fact that Forcefield pushes enemies away seems like an unnecessary bonus for casters/nerf for melee mindslayers.
-Grip has lots of awesome ideas, but I can't really see myself taking it, given that the class already has two really strong cat point investments (Force and Manipulations) plus whatever you want from escorts (Stone Alchemy seems like a strong choice). Maybe consider making it unlocked?
-The fact that Dreamforge is unlocked, but you can't invest points into it until level 10, seems odd.
-Projection Mastery increases damage way too much (spiked auras doing 4-5 times more damage with 5/5 points invested than with 0/5).
-Kinetic Leech restores about 10 times as much psi as the other leeches.
-Quick as Thought's description states that it increases your "physical speed," whatever that is.
-Edit: You might also want to have a look at Reshape Armor. It was adding 22 armor for me at Willpower 62, which seems like a lot for something that can be added to 6 different items.
Balance suggestions:
-The fact that Forcefield pushes enemies away seems like an unnecessary bonus for casters/nerf for melee mindslayers.
-Grip has lots of awesome ideas, but I can't really see myself taking it, given that the class already has two really strong cat point investments (Force and Manipulations) plus whatever you want from escorts (Stone Alchemy seems like a strong choice). Maybe consider making it unlocked?
-The fact that Dreamforge is unlocked, but you can't invest points into it until level 10, seems odd.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Hmm try the addon above.
Hooray for balance feedback!
Projection Mastery is doing 10x what it should be doing.
The Leech Psi restore amounts scale based on how much Psi you are missing, but they all do the same amount.
Hooray for balance feedback!
Projection Mastery is doing 10x what it should be doing.
The Leech Psi restore amounts scale based on how much Psi you are missing, but they all do the same amount.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Unfortunately I don't know how to code for ToME, but I'll definitely help test out anything that needs testing. I'll test out the most recent changes today or tomorrow depending on when I have time.
Grip kind of ended up being where stuff that didn't fit anywhere else went. It doesn't have the best design but I'm not really sure how to improve it beyond replacing Bind with something else.
I thought Force was initially unlocked? I think it would make more sense to have it unlocked and Dream Forge locked rather than the other way around.
You might be right about Forcefield, it should probably be mostly used for damage reduction and knockback might make it unnecessarily complicated or annoying to use.Parcae2 wrote:Balance suggestions:
-The fact that Forcefield pushes enemies away seems like an unnecessary bonus for casters/nerf for melee mindslayers.
-Grip has lots of awesome ideas, but I can't really see myself taking it, given that the class already has two really strong cat point investments (Force and Manipulations) plus whatever you want from escorts (Stone Alchemy seems like a strong choice). Maybe consider making it unlocked?
-The fact that Dreamforge is unlocked, but you can't invest points into it until level 10, seems odd.
Grip kind of ended up being where stuff that didn't fit anywhere else went. It doesn't have the best design but I'm not really sure how to improve it beyond replacing Bind with something else.
I thought Force was initially unlocked? I think it would make more sense to have it unlocked and Dream Forge locked rather than the other way around.
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
In my view, locked trees should either provide important defense/utility the class can't get in other ways, or increase the power of existing offensive talents (generally via resistance penetration), or provide an entirely new way of playing (e.g. a dual-wield tree on a mainly shield-using class). Grip is more of a grab bag of talents that are awesome (throw your opponents around with your mind? BADASS) but don't really pass that test. They are talents I would like to use, but I can't see myself ever getting to do so if the tree is locked.
I am a big fan of the proposed new "spike shields/lower resistances" tree, which meets both of my criteria for a locked tree.
Edit: Checked the most recent addon post. Bugs are still there, but the locked trees make more sense. I am a little concerned at the nerf to melee slayers - they have a lot of their talents in a locked tree, whereas the casters don't really have any. Also the locked melee tree doesn't really fit the criteria for a locked tree listed above - it is, again, just a bunch of skills. I would unlock that tree and maybe re-lock Manipulations or something.
Edit2: I just wanted to add that I am a huge fan of the addon overall. It really makes Mindslayers fun again.
I am a big fan of the proposed new "spike shields/lower resistances" tree, which meets both of my criteria for a locked tree.
Edit: Checked the most recent addon post. Bugs are still there, but the locked trees make more sense. I am a little concerned at the nerf to melee slayers - they have a lot of their talents in a locked tree, whereas the casters don't really have any. Also the locked melee tree doesn't really fit the criteria for a locked tree listed above - it is, again, just a bunch of skills. I would unlock that tree and maybe re-lock Manipulations or something.
Edit2: I just wanted to add that I am a huge fan of the addon overall. It really makes Mindslayers fun again.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
If the reworked Mindslayer has four locked categories (Grip, Finer Energy Manipulations, Advanced Thermal, and Advanced Charge), we would have to make sure to balance them very, very well or the class might end up like Archmage with only a few viable routes (Wildfire and Aether being far better than Ice, Storm, and Stone). As it is, I agree with Parcae that Grip is pretty underwhelming with the exceptions of Telekinetic Throw and Redirect, neither of which are truly amazing.
I'm somewhat torn on HousePet's idea of moving spiked shields to locked categories with Transcendent talents. I do dislike the micromanagement with spiking shields but the Transcendent talents are just always going to be activated at the start of fights just like shields are always activated at the start of fights (if these talents aren't instant people will just end up using Track and activating them at range 11, making them even more tedious). This doesn't really solve the issue of micromanagement. Also it seems like the Transcendent talents are way too good with all the status effects they can inflict, such as AoE stun, confuse, sleep, and blind. I would prefer to keep it more simple. Also if spiked shields are moved to locked categories in any way, then spike shields should be nerfed and sustained shields should be buffed (and perhaps the health per level should be further increased to 0), since sustained shields are terrible compared to spiked shields as they are, and locking them will cripple that class's defenses. I think you might be trying to a bit too much with one talent here.
That being said, I really like the almost all the other talents in the Advanced Thermal and Charge categories.
Heatlash is good but not particularly interesting. It should probably be a bit more different from Mindlash besides just changing the damage type and stunning though.
Thermal Balance is neat. To make it more interesting, it could burn for extra damage if your psi is higher than 50% and freeze or slow if your psi is lower than 50%, otherwise it's just a standard damage talent with a cool twist that doesn't really make a huge difference in practice.
I obviously like Brain Freeze since I proposed it in the first place
. Mindslayer needs more shutdown talents rather than just damage ones.
Accelerant is neat but it's ultimately yet another damage talent without doing much else. It somewhat overlaps with Pyrokinesis, but I guess that's kind of like comparing Fireflash to Inferno. Since it's called Accelerant, maybe it could actually increase the enemy's speed but do massive damage with the burn to compensate.
Electrify is cool, it seems a little like Hurricane. It probably does varying amounts of damage like other lightning damage talents, right? Also, to make it more interesting and to play off the being near other enemies thing, its damage could possibly increase with the number of adjacent enemies.
I obviously like Sensitize since I proposed something similar with lightning damage instead of mind damage. I'm honestly not sure what the damage type should be but it's awesome either way.
Clinging Static is cool but I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice since it's not very similar to anything that currently exists.
I really like Heartstart. The only comment I have is it might be better as a sustain that automatically activates when you run out of health (like Second Life), but also allow it to be activated automatically for the cleanse.
Stored Charge is pretty cool. Although I usually don't like magey passives, this one requires you to actively do something so it's alright. It should also trigger when you hit an enemy in melee since that would also transfer the charge.
Since each locked category only has room for four talents and since one will probably end up being a passive or Transcendent talent (honestly I don't think passives are necessary, I like having more activated talents than passives/sustains in general as long as they aren't a waste of a turn), not all these ideas will be able to make it in since there are four or five proposed talents for each of these locked categories. For Advanced Thermal, I recommend going with Thermal Balance, Brain Freeze, and Accelerant (in that order), and if we skip the passive/Transcendent talent, Heatlash should be added as the first talent. For Advanced Charge, I recommend going with Electrify, Sensitize, and Heartstart (in that order), and if we skip the passive/Trascendent talent, Stored Charge should be added as the first or second talent in this category.
I'm somewhat torn on HousePet's idea of moving spiked shields to locked categories with Transcendent talents. I do dislike the micromanagement with spiking shields but the Transcendent talents are just always going to be activated at the start of fights just like shields are always activated at the start of fights (if these talents aren't instant people will just end up using Track and activating them at range 11, making them even more tedious). This doesn't really solve the issue of micromanagement. Also it seems like the Transcendent talents are way too good with all the status effects they can inflict, such as AoE stun, confuse, sleep, and blind. I would prefer to keep it more simple. Also if spiked shields are moved to locked categories in any way, then spike shields should be nerfed and sustained shields should be buffed (and perhaps the health per level should be further increased to 0), since sustained shields are terrible compared to spiked shields as they are, and locking them will cripple that class's defenses. I think you might be trying to a bit too much with one talent here.
That being said, I really like the almost all the other talents in the Advanced Thermal and Charge categories.
Heatlash is good but not particularly interesting. It should probably be a bit more different from Mindlash besides just changing the damage type and stunning though.
Thermal Balance is neat. To make it more interesting, it could burn for extra damage if your psi is higher than 50% and freeze or slow if your psi is lower than 50%, otherwise it's just a standard damage talent with a cool twist that doesn't really make a huge difference in practice.
I obviously like Brain Freeze since I proposed it in the first place
. Mindslayer needs more shutdown talents rather than just damage ones.Accelerant is neat but it's ultimately yet another damage talent without doing much else. It somewhat overlaps with Pyrokinesis, but I guess that's kind of like comparing Fireflash to Inferno. Since it's called Accelerant, maybe it could actually increase the enemy's speed but do massive damage with the burn to compensate.
Electrify is cool, it seems a little like Hurricane. It probably does varying amounts of damage like other lightning damage talents, right? Also, to make it more interesting and to play off the being near other enemies thing, its damage could possibly increase with the number of adjacent enemies.
I obviously like Sensitize since I proposed something similar with lightning damage instead of mind damage. I'm honestly not sure what the damage type should be but it's awesome either way.
Clinging Static is cool but I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice since it's not very similar to anything that currently exists.
I really like Heartstart. The only comment I have is it might be better as a sustain that automatically activates when you run out of health (like Second Life), but also allow it to be activated automatically for the cleanse.
Stored Charge is pretty cool. Although I usually don't like magey passives, this one requires you to actively do something so it's alright. It should also trigger when you hit an enemy in melee since that would also transfer the charge.
Since each locked category only has room for four talents and since one will probably end up being a passive or Transcendent talent (honestly I don't think passives are necessary, I like having more activated talents than passives/sustains in general as long as they aren't a waste of a turn), not all these ideas will be able to make it in since there are four or five proposed talents for each of these locked categories. For Advanced Thermal, I recommend going with Thermal Balance, Brain Freeze, and Accelerant (in that order), and if we skip the passive/Transcendent talent, Heatlash should be added as the first talent. For Advanced Charge, I recommend going with Electrify, Sensitize, and Heartstart (in that order), and if we skip the passive/Trascendent talent, Stored Charge should be added as the first or second talent in this category.
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Realign is incredibly bugged on AIs. It appears to be healing them to full, at no turn energy cost, every time they get damaged. It also produces a LUA error when this happens.
From the log:
Edit: Also the bug in Kinetic Leech only affects the display, not the actual psi leeched.
Edit2: The Realign bug also applies to player characters. Using the talent does not use energy or put it on cooldown.
From the log:
Code: Select all
[LOG] Ce'Nytta the degenerated skeleton warrior uses Realign.
[MIND CRIT %] 6.6
stack traceback:
[C]: in function 'error'
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:153: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:135>
Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:175: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:153: /data/talents/psionic/finer-energy-manipulations.lua:48: attempt to get length of global 'effs' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
/data/talents/psionic/finer-energy-manipulations.lua:48: in function </data/talents/psionic/finer-energy-manipulations.lua:33>
[C]: in function 'xpcall'
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:148: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:135>
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 error
At /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:175 useTalent
At /mod/ai//tactical.lua:382 runAI
At /mod/ai//tactical.lua:408 doAI
At /mod/class/NPC.lua:61 act
At /engine/GameEnergyBased.lua:126 tickLevel
At /engine/GameEnergyBased.lua:62 tick
At /engine/GameTurnBased.lua:46 tick
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1175 Edit2: The Realign bug also applies to player characters. Using the talent does not use energy or put it on cooldown.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Hello, I'm all for testing this rework since I really like the concept of the mindslayer and from what I read in this topic some really good idea were implemented but what am I supposed to do with the rar after downloading it? it's not like the add-on where I have just one file to move in my folder ^^'
I write guides and make addons too now, apparently
You can go here for a compilation of everything I wrote, plus some other important stuff!
Includes general guides (inscriptions, zone, prodigies), and class guides (Demo, Anorithil, Bulwark, Zerker, Sblade)
You can go here for a compilation of everything I wrote, plus some other important stuff!
Includes general guides (inscriptions, zone, prodigies), and class guides (Demo, Anorithil, Bulwark, Zerker, Sblade)
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Extract it to your addons folder.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
I merged the Grip talents into two and then merged it with Force and shuffled a bit. Grip has been removed.
The final locked category will be Force.
The three Transcendent talents will be talent 1 in their respective categories and you will only be able to use one at once. They are a bit complicated, but then we can't really assume which talents players will have.
Finer Energy Manipulations isn't currently locked, but Dream Forge is.
Melee talents don't quite feel right to me. I'd like to keep Telekinetic Combat locked. Maybe we could move TK Throw to TK Combat, TK Shove back to Force and TK Smash back to Psifighting?
I've mostly refined the Advanced Thermal and Charged categories.
Current design for Thermal:
Transcendent Pyrokinesis.
Thermal Balance.
Brain Freeze.
Heat Shift. Move heat from a group of enemies' feet to their weapons. So they drop their hot weapons and have their feet frozen to the ground.
Charged:
Transcendent Electrokinesis.
Static Net. Combined version of Clinging Static and Stored Charge.
Thought Sense. Track and defense bonus. Might have the track restricted to thinking critters?
Probably a combined Electrify and Sensitize or maybe a Heartstart?
The final locked category will be Force.
The three Transcendent talents will be talent 1 in their respective categories and you will only be able to use one at once. They are a bit complicated, but then we can't really assume which talents players will have.
Finer Energy Manipulations isn't currently locked, but Dream Forge is.
Melee talents don't quite feel right to me. I'd like to keep Telekinetic Combat locked. Maybe we could move TK Throw to TK Combat, TK Shove back to Force and TK Smash back to Psifighting?
I've mostly refined the Advanced Thermal and Charged categories.
Current design for Thermal:
Transcendent Pyrokinesis.
Thermal Balance.
Brain Freeze.
Heat Shift. Move heat from a group of enemies' feet to their weapons. So they drop their hot weapons and have their feet frozen to the ground.
Charged:
Transcendent Electrokinesis.
Static Net. Combined version of Clinging Static and Stored Charge.
Thought Sense. Track and defense bonus. Might have the track restricted to thinking critters?
Probably a combined Electrify and Sensitize or maybe a Heartstart?
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Could we get a quick patch for the Realign problem? It makes the class quite difficult to play, since you and some opponents are effectively immortal.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Sure, will do it tonight.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.