Remove all potions.

[Vee]

I like the idea of allowing the alchemist class to (dis)assemble runes/infusions und stuff. It even makes it look more like the 'image' one might have of an alchemist, down in a dungeon in some kind of potions/whatever-lab.

V

[Susramanian]

Madmonk,

Here's a drastic but effective two-part solution:
1) Allow rune switching only in town at a special NPC or something. Then carrying around swaps isn't an issue.

2) Turn off selling to stores and boost gold drops to compensate.

Maybe now I'm just looking for excuses to ask for a no selling option

As far as the reduced options you mention, it looks like DG hasn't yet gotten in all the egos, so the runes and infusions will feel weak and inflexible. Plus the original design had a wand/rod slot implemented to complement the runes, and that doesn't exist yet.

[madmonk]

Here's a drastic but effective two-part solution:
1) Allow rune switching only in town at a special NPC or something. Then carrying around swaps isn't an issue.

Why? This limits your options even further.

2) Turn off selling to stores and boost gold drops to compensate.

Maybe now I'm just looking for excuses to ask for a no selling option

Perhaps...

As far as the reduced options you mention, it looks like DG hasn't yet gotten in all the egos, so the runes and infusions will feel weak and inflexible. Plus the original design had a wand/rod slot implemented to complement the runes, and that doesn't exist yet.

OK, I don't feel that they are weak or inflexible, just different. The extra slot would be useful but implies I would have to carry around a selection of wands as well...

[Susramanian]

If we can swap runes any time we want, it will always be desirable to carry around a bunch of alternate runes. Hence my original intent to make rune-inscribing a purely strategic decision made before embarking on a grand adventure. Perhaps for good reason, this was met with hostility, so I compromised. Now the inventory mess is back. Sigh.

Including a bunch of egos and ways to cleverly combine runes would take much of the sting out of making runes town-only. Far more strategic options open up to offset the reduced tactical options.
If we're dead set on keeping rune-switching a tactical decision, then I think we need better inventory management: containers for certain items, or tabs for organized displays, or something. Yeah, that's sort of crude band-aid for a large problem, but it might be more popular than town-only runes.

[Sirrocco]

Alternate idea: crank up the weight a bit. If it becomes nontrivial to carry huge stacks of them around, people will be less inclined to do so. If they're 2-3 lbs each, you might wind up hot-swapping a few in if you happened to have them on you, but you'd be a lot less likely to just carry them around in large numbers.

...and Sus, I have to say that I'm really detecting a strong theme of "No, really. people should be doing it exactly the way I laid out. Why aren't we doing it exactly the way I laid out?" in your recent posts.

[madmonk]

If we can swap runes any time we want, it will always be desirable to carry around a bunch of alternate runes. Hence my original intent to make rune-inscribing a purely strategic decision made before embarking on a grand adventure. Perhaps for good reason, this was met with hostility, so I compromised. Now the inventory mess is back. Sigh.

You were always going to have inventory mess. Adventurers will pick up runes/infusions and thus have an inventory management problem anyway. Or was it your intention that runes/infusions would only ever be available in town and not found in the dungeon?

If we're dead set on keeping rune-switching a tactical decision, then I think we need better inventory management: containers for certain items, or tabs for organized displays, or something. Yeah, that's sort of crude band-aid for a large problem, but it might be more popular than town-only runes.

I for one am not dead set on keeping rune-switching a tactical decision, but yes as implemented it creates an inventory problem...

Certainly I would be in favour of using tabs (or an organiser of some sort) to better manage the inventory. With the slot limit of T2/3 overcome (good) it does mean we should devote some time and create a better inventory system

[Susramanian]

Madmonk:

I always intended for runes to be available in the dungeon. So to the extent that you pick up stuff you want, yes, they'd add to inventory clutter like any piece of gear does. But you wouldn't be keeping a big variety of them handy like scrolls and potions now. You'd keep a stockpile of stuff for possible use later in town, like with equipment. So I guess it comes down to a difference between constant clutter with the tactical runes and gradually building clutter between home visits with the take-home-and-stockpile runes.

Sirrocco:

Boosted weight would definitely help. I think we should do it. And the theme you're detecting in my posts is there, I admit it. I invest heavily in my own ideas, and get exasperated too easily when they're cut up and taken piecemeal. Open-mindedness and compromise are two great keys to the success of collaborations, and I need to remind myself of that occasionally.

[Grey]

Am I the only one who doesn't suffer from inventory clutter? With the mouse scrolling through and sorting your inventory is a doddle. It's been made even easier in b13, with actions windows popping up under the cursor.

I think punishing players for carrying too many runes around is a bit mean, and does nothing to help the underlying problem. People will only find it restrictive and annoying. I'd say making them impossible to sell is the easiest solution, since then there's no reason to carry them unless they're tactically significant.

Also, if you don't like inventory clutter then don't carry them yourself. Let other people play how they want, please :P

[madmonk]

Am I the only one who doesn't suffer from inventory clutter? With the mouse scrolling through and sorting your inventory is a doddle. It's been made even easier in b13, with actions windows popping up under the cursor.

Pictures please!

I am not sure of what you are talking about!

[Susramanian]

I'd say making them impossible to sell is the easiest solution, since then there's no reason to carry them unless they're tactically significant.

I'm all for this. I'd even extend the idea to cover equipment, gems, and anything else we can name.

[Sirrocco]

Making them heavier is a way to push them from "runes/infusions as potion/scroll replacements" to "runes/infusions as a funky form of equipment". Sure, you could carry around multiple artifact items for their activation powers, but people tend not to.

Mind you, I will note that the major problem that runes/infusions was supposed to solve *has been solved*. Specifically, the "I walk into the final fight with a backpack full of full heal that I scummed for and it essentially trivializes everything." issue. It's no longer an issue. The remaining issues are coming from arguments about playstyle - between people who like to clutter up their inventory as a way of having a lot of different options, and people who don't like doing this, but who feel compelled to do the strategically optimal thing, and who therefore will if it is the strategically optimal thing - with a sidebar of frustration in that the strategically optimal thing is also not "the way stuff was supposed to work".

...and you know, I like that they're salable. I don't play ironman. I enjoy picking up piles of loot that I will never use and bringing it home to sell. I like the fact that I can feel good about getting dagger drops in spite of the fact that I would never use a dagger.

[madmonk]

I'd say making them impossible to sell is the easiest solution, since then there's no reason to carry them unless they're tactically significant.

I'm all for this. I'd even extend the idea to cover equipment, gems, and anything else we can name.

Well the recent no shop challenge showed we don't really need shops...

So yes, that is certainly an option!

[Shoob]

Well the recent no shop challenge showed we don't really need shops...

But really just because we don't need something doesn't mean it isn't nice to have.

For example, consider ToME4 we don't need to have it at all, but it is nice to have.

[madmonk]

Well the recent no shop challenge showed we don't really need shops...

But really just because we don't need something doesn't mean it isn't nice to have.

For example, consider ToME4 we don't need to have it at all, but it is nice to have.

Yes, fair point!

[Sirrocco]

Admit it, madmonk. You just like exclamation points.