Principles of design.

[bpat]

The point I've been trying to make for a while now is that balancing specifically for Normal will usually cause other difficulties to break, while balancing for Insane will usually cause Normal and Nightmare to be pretty balanced too. There are a few exceptions that are good to keep in mind, specifically stealth, defense, saves, flat damage reduction, and things that don't crit that tend to be better on Normal than on higher difficulties but I don't like to suggest these things anyway. As long as the obvious things are kept in mind like these, I cannot think of any instance in this game's history where something has been tuned for Insane but ended up being very overpowered on Normal (and neither can anyone else as far as I can tell). The reworked Brawler and Sun Paladin are a direct result of balancing for Insane and they are both generally considered to be in a great spot right now, being good but not too good and more importantly, fun to play. Until I see actual examples of balancing for higher difficulties causing problems on lower difficulties, I can't take those concerns seriously because they are nothing more than speculation.

It's not that I don't care about balance on Normal (prenerf Oozemancer was a thing), but mostly I don't think that kind of comment contributes anything. I consider balance on all difficulties by only suggesting mechanics that tend to work equally well on all difficulties. I do care about making sure Normal is fine too, but it is a fact that Normal is less impacted by balance changes than other difficulties so I don't spend as much time thinking about it or discussing it. Most comments I have seen expressing concerns about Normal seem to have no idea what they're talking about so I don't take them seriously. I actually put more effort into making sure Normal is balanced than most of the people who think I'm elitist, but for the most part they don't understand enough about the game's mechanics to realize that.

[Mex]

Although both NPCs and players use the same classes there are considerable differences.

A negative for NPCs is that they do not chain abilities together or have any consideration for CDs as they have very basic AI, heal when low otherwise use offensive abilities. This means that broken combinations such as timeless + sacrifice shield (or even using sacrifice shield) are not considered by them. They also cannot "reset" fights or use cd managing skills effectively by exiting the level so abilities such as unstoppable or long cd abilities become a lot weaker or a worthless considerations for them.

A positive for NPCs is that they tend to have very high base stats and talent levels, which players can never achieve. This leads to skills that scale directly from those factors without a cap such as summoning abilities, physical attacks, some sustains (shield wall, which is trash on players) and passives (vitality, which again is trash on players) being extremely strong when used by NPCs. In addition skills that apply status effects almost always bypass player saves and conversely players have a very hard time applying statuses due to the high saves granted by high stats/talent levels.

These points affect how you play the game on Insane+ and why (most of the time) status afflicting abilities are completely ignored among other decisions.

Normal difficulty NPCs have very few of the positive points above which means that Normal difficulty classes are very similar in power level (although individual NPCs are probably vastly weaker just because they scale lower than players on NM-) to player classes if the player plays dumb i.e. hack n slash. It is only when players use abilities intelligently that they gain an edge, otherwise known as being tactical!

Other considerations are abilities that have a fixed power level which does not scale for players. Because of the value that they have been given they are very good on Normal, but because that value is fixed they become weaker as NPCs become stronger. Particular examples of this are shadows, torques and fungus. Conversely multiplicative abilities such as flexible combat are just as good on Insane+ as they are on Normal.

What does this mean for balance then? If abilities are balanced to not scale drastically (or they have a cap) with stats/talent level then they will never be truly op on NPCs. If abilities are only good when used together (aegis heal + BiL or whatever) or in a proper sequence with CD considerations (which AI is incapable of doing) then they will only be good on players. It also means that status negation (which is effectively an infinitely scaling ability) is more valuable.

Prodigies can be a balance issue because players get only 2 and NPCs get more. The solution is not to never change prodigies for fear of making NPCs more op but it is to either limit prodigies that NPCs can have (or fix it to 2 like players) and make them not scale to stats/talent level and/or give them a cap. Giving players more choice or opening up different builds is an improvement to the game.

[Mex]

Races aren't used by NPCs but the points above apply (except the point about NPCs using the abilities). Skeletons are good on Normal because they have a good fixed power ability (the shield/heal), the negative of having statuses inflicted upon them is not as relevant and Heroism is not as good on Normal. Very quickly they become bad on Insane+. Shalore is good on all difficulties because Timeless is a "multiplicative" ability which takes whatever you have and makes it strictly better.

Races should be balanced relative to each other and there should be a genuine choice (as I play to win I assert that there is a correct build/race for any class so to me it makes no difference).

I should point out that (for the vast majority) edge and Shibari (with tomisgos help) reflect these design choices and that is why they made excellent changes to TW, PM, sun paladin and brawler (although brawler can be a bit problematic on higher difficulties).

[Atarlost]

I wasn't originally planning on calling out people by name, but at this point you have directly attacked me with a bunch of falsehoods...

If you think they're falsehoods then what I've been reading isn't what you think you've been typing.

[bpat]

I completely agree with Mex, he explained really well how scaling and comboes matter in design.

I don't see any point in replying to Atarlost because he clearly has something against me to the point where he makes stuff up about me.

[Frumple]

The reworked Brawler and Sun Paladin are a direct result of balancing for Insane and they are both generally considered to be in a great spot right now, being good but not too good and more importantly, fun to play. Until I see actual examples of balancing for higher difficulties causing problems on lower difficulties, I can't take those concerns seriously because they are nothing more than speculation.

Kinda' late to this, but I have to ask if folks (not just you, but in general; I don't play with chat on or pay too much attention to the forums, so I don't notice idle conversation and such) actually think sunpas are "good but not too good" on normal since the retune and subsequent tweaks. They were that, but somewhat uninteresting to play, before the changes. Since, they're pretty much a complete faceroll on normal, to the point the ones I've played since the changes have been able to casually make rather suboptimal choices in talent allocation (radiance!) and whatnot, and still half-snooze through the game with little more effort than I used to put into pre-psi-shield change mindslayers (i.e. back when they were functionally invincible ). They're really powerful right now on the baseline difficulty, so far as I've noticed, easily one of the easiest ones to win with. Enough tank they can play very carelessly, enough damage they can still just kinda' roll over things, and enough of various utility effects they don't really have much that troubles them too badly.

Basically, if sunpa's an example of something tuned for insane, it's not what I'd call a very good example of something that's also tuned for normal, heh. Not if a notable challenge is desired for both difficulties. I'd definitely call them fun, and much better design overall regardless of the balance issues, but I also enjoyed playing those mindslayers :V

Can't speak for brawlers, though. S'been a long time since I've played any of those, heh.

[grobblewobble]

The reworked Brawler and Sun Paladin are a direct result of balancing for Insane and they are both generally considered to be in a great spot right now, being good but not too good and more importantly, fun to play. Until I see actual examples of balancing for higher difficulties causing problems on lower difficulties, I can't take those concerns seriously because they are nothing more than speculation.

Kinda' late to this, but I have to ask if folks (not just you, but in general; I don't play with chat on or pay too much attention to the forums, so I don't notice idle conversation and such) actually think sunpas are "good but not too good" on normal since the retune and subsequent tweaks

Well to be honest, the new Sun Paladin is the perfect example of why I worry about power creep.

I am bad enough of a player to fail regularly with many classes on Normal / Roguelike, but with the new Sun Paladin (especially Ogre) it feels like it is impossible to fail. You can really get away with anything and you'll live. They are possibly more OP than oozemancers now.

One thing that has me worried, is that if we keep moving in this direction, we might force players to play Insane as the standard difficulty. That is bad, because Insane is quirky. Monsters are so extreme.. bad effects last extremely long, monster skill levels are extremely high... that is all perfectly okay as long as Insane is no more than a special challenge for experts, but not so okay when you rebalance the game such that it becomes the new standard difficulty.

[HousePet]

I seem to recall players suddenly getting slaughtered by Brawler rares when they were redone. Possibly the Horned Horror too, but he always did that.

bpat, have you played Brawler or Sun Paladin on normal since they were updated?

[bpat]

Brawler rares aren't in the top 50% of hardest rares and they never have been. People can get an unlucky spawn and die to anything. Horned Horror is hard because it was designed to be hard, that has absolutely nothing to do with how hard Brawler is. The Master is really hard for most players and Necromancer is absolutely awful aside from Sacrifice combos which The Master doesn't use. Brawler more than any class is better on Insane than on Normal because of stuff like Axe Kick, Grapple, Combination Kick, and Reflex Defense, so if you think that Brawler is OP on Normal then I seriously wonder how you evaluate these things.

It doesn't matter if I have played Brawler or Sun Paladin on Normal because I find Normal very easy on all classes. Sun Paladin on Normal is probably above average but it's not even close to classes like Summoner and Oozemancer that can beat Normal with ease. If you are finding Sun Paladin to be very good on Normal then maybe you are just good at that class, different people are good at different classes. I find Doombringer to be easier to play than Arcane Blade and Reaver even though Doombringer is way weaker.

Insane will never be the standard difficulty. If Normal is too easy then the scaling on Normal should be looked at. Sun Paladin changes weren't power creep, they were fixing design issues. Power creep would be if Sun Paladin was changed to be better than Reaver or Archmage. If fixing design issues causes the game to become easier, then the general difficulty should be adjusted instead of preserving bad design.

[Frumple]

... okay, so take it from someone that does play normal fairly regularly: Sun paladins have a substantially easier time of winning on normal than reavers do, now. I'd put them only a bit below oozemancers in sheer extent you can play lazily, m'self, in their current state, if perhaps not more powerful in general than them. Was why I was asking, really. Sunpas are something of a faceroll on normal since the changes, at least as near as I've noticed.

Also if my playstyle is good at sunpas, I weep for the standards of skill in this world The last one I won with, I used maybe three class-related active abilities with even the most remote of regularity, barely used inscriptions, and cheerfully did incredibly stupid things and came out smelling of proverbial daisies. I played it like I played those mindslayers I mentioned: Bump into everything and laugh and laugh and laugh. I loved it, but a challenge it was not, hehe, even relative to normal in general.

[HousePet]

So how are you so sure that balancing for Insane didn't cause an imbalance on Normal then?

[HousePet]

So 5 minutes after I walk out the door to go for a 2 hour hike, my brain finishes processing what Mex said...

Prodigies typically don't need sensible or intelligent use, whereas class talents are only great when used in the right way.
Now NPCs are given prodigies that a sensible for them, so while buffing a class may not transfer the full increase to NPCs, buffing a prodigy does.
Obviously its still not 100% as some are still targeted and the AI isn't great at that.

[bpat]

If we're talking about anecdotes, I steamrolled Normal with a Lich Necromancer with my only death being to a one turn kill in a Farportal, when Lich Necromancer was even worse than it is now (and it's REALLY bad right now). Doesn't mean it was OP, just means I figured out how to succeed at it through playing well. The only things that I would consider balance issues on Normal are stuff like prenerf Oozemancer where someone with no skill can win without much trouble, because any lesser balance difference (on Normal) is negligible compared to how well the person plays that particular class. This is because Normal is extremely forgiving and it's more of a test of how not to make a dumb mistakes. I happened to make few dumb mistakes on Necromancer so I won easily. Oozemancer was a problem because it took like ten turns of walking back and forth to get punished.

[Frumple]

Seriously bp, there were times, even late game, with the new sunpa where I'd sit there with a rare wailing on me just to watch them die to retaliation and radiance damage (it's almost always hilarious, by the way). It wasn't me just happening to play the class well. I've a fair idea what well played sunpa looks like, and I'm preeeetty sure it doesn't look like "Hold down movement button in last noted direction of enemy while reading on a kindle", which is literally how I've killed multiple post-west bosses with the updated paladin.

I love the things, but they're definitely somewhat overtuned for normal, unless I really am some kind of deranged savant at playing them and they work best barely using anything but bump attacks. If that's what you actually want to go with as an explanation, though, I... guess I can't stop you. Will just note the critters definitely aren't what I'd call a lesser balance difference, heh, which is why the initial statement confused me so.

[grobblewobble]

unless I really am some kind of deranged savant at playing them and they work best barely using anything but bump attacks.

I tried an ogre sun paladin on Roguelike Normal (no vault), wielding a two-hander mainhand to unlock the best trees for both two-handers and shield. It was incredibly OP. Contrary to the above I actually ended up never bump attacking, because I had so many nuke buttons that there would be one available every round. Assault was an average melee attack for this guy.

I opened every vault as soon as I saw it, including the Multicolored Wyrms in the Vor weapon room, and ran into them like I was Leeroy, without ever retreating. The monsters just melted and my armor rarely took a dent. Well, to be honest the Vor Wyrms actually did make a dent in my armor but I still came out on top.

I am pretty positive that Ogre Sun paladins are at the same spot in Normal as Oozemancers used to be, if that is your standard.