Brainstorming an "Ogre Magi" race

[Radon26]

hi, i read most of this topic, and i like the idea.
if I get it right, the lore sums up to:
not from maj('eyal), and love inscriptions.

how about we give them ability, to make their own inscriptions?
each lvl, gives them option of a different inscription.
at 1st, 3rd, and 5th lvl, they would get a new "inscription slot", which is separate/different from other inscription slots.
when you click the icon, you get to chose to "use" or "modify".
modify, just means replace the inscription with another inscription.
basicly, you can chose out of any existing inscriptions, (limited by the ability lvl).

I believe that would make this really flexible. (maybe too flexible).

alternatively:
rather than limited by lvl of the talent, it could be "have that inscription in your inventory. so you can use it without using it.

I believe both the Orcs and the Ogre's came through the Darkportal.

I dunno about ogres but,
In wc3 the frozen throne the blood elf campaign, you travel through the portal, and there you meet the "old orcs"(also demons)

[Doctornull]

Ogres are refugees from another planet.

Isn't that the explanation for Beholders?

It would be kind of ... ugly and uncreative to see two new races with the same origin right in a row.

Also it's weird to see native giants, trolls and all the other big native creatures like dragons, plus the huge number of native humanoid races, all being native, but this new large humanoid is an alien?

IMHO a fun backstory might be that Ogres were a Conclave experiment in Halfling augmentation. Humanity created Highers, while Halflings unlocked an Overgrowth Regress = Ogre.

[Davion Fuxa]

IMHO a fun backstory might be that Ogres were a Conclave experiment in Halfling augmentation. Humanity created Highers, while Halflings unlocked an Overgrowth Regress = Ogre.

In my opinion, such an idea sounds better suited to a Race called Half-Giant.

[Hogulus]

A few ideas based on them being aliens:

• Ogres were once the spoiled, decadent middle-class of a Rome-like planet that used magic as much as we use electronics and plastic, supporting demagogue politicians who eventually sold the planet out to demons. (I'm not sure if ToME's demons are really sane enough to make deals, though - have had a concept for a "Cubus" race of demon diplomats that serves to combine contract-making demons and incubi/succubi but that'd be getting into too much here) Conspicuous consumption and violent sports were big things among them, and magical enhancements (or plain ol' natural selection) to make them bigger and stronger were popular while food was in great supply on their homeworld - here, their enhancements were deadly for many, leading to quicker starvation. They have knowledge of many advanced subjects, including rune creation and (mostly-"recreational") alchemy (which were popular hobbies on their home planet), but since most of their day-to-day activities were handled by magic, slaves, or golems, they can come off as clueless about other things; a programmer on this planet might not have any idea how to till a field or build a house, and neither would ogres who used to have golems handle all that for them. Halflings happily murdered a couple in their sleep and dragged them off for autopsy/dissection, but kept this secret and negotiated with the others peacefully to recruit them in their war, serving the brute-force roles halflings lacked on their own (aside from expensive golems).
• Ogres are a species that ended up mostly immune to demonic corruption. It messed with their bodies enough to "flag" them to not be attacked by other demons, but their minds are unaltered, and they're horrified by the other demons' actions. They lack the numbers to actually do much but keep their heads down and not make too much noise within the horde, but have been hoping for ages to find a planet with a cracked shield like Eyal, one that could let them push through in the same way other demons do, then either repair the shield or reproduce enough to put up a worthwhile resistance.
• Ogres are a race of prideful, organized invaders, who set out to conquer Eyal but abandoned the plan when some of their warships crashed into the shield; the empire fled, leaving the survivors on the rapidly-failing ships to fend for themselves. Some managed to get to the escape pods, slip through the cracks, and bitterly make a life for themselves among the races who should've been their subjects.

[Radon26]

another one on being aliens.

the spell blaze, scarred not only the surface of the planet, but also the very fabric of the universe.
this cause some anomalies.
one of such anomalies, was a temporal rift on another planet. the rift sucked in some the inhabitants.
After YEARS of temporal imprisonment, you have been finally released. but it is not the home you knew.
you are now stranded on Eyal. Your destiny begins here.


seems like the spellblaze had more victims than we knew.

[Doctornull]

IMHO a fun backstory might be that Ogres were a Conclave experiment in Halfling augmentation. Humanity created Highers, while Halflings unlocked an Overgrowth Regress = Ogre.

In my opinion, such an idea sounds better suited to a Race called Half-Giant.

Giants are a real race, and these Ogres are unrelated to Giants.

If Giants didn't exist, I could see your point... but they do. So that would just be needlessly confusing.

[Davion Fuxa]

Giants are a real race, and these Ogres are unrelated to Giants.

If Giants didn't exist, I could see your point... but they do. So that would just be needlessly confusing.

What's the difference between a Snow Giant from a Human other then the fact that they are far greater in size? If Size is really the only thing that differentiates the 'Giant's like Trolls and Snow Giants from 'Humanoids' like Humans and Elves, then how can the race that stems from Halflings be justified as being part of Humanoids?

Personally, unless these new Halfling offbreeds are going to be the same size as Humans and Dwarves, I don't think they can be classified as anything other then 'Giant' in game.

[Doctornull]

Giants are a real race, and these Ogres are unrelated to Giants.

If Giants didn't exist, I could see your point... but they do. So that would just be needlessly confusing.

What's the difference between a Snow Giant from a Human other then the fact that they are far greater in size?

- Culture
- Temperament
- Immunity to Cold
- Tendency to dine upon human flesh
- Skin Color
- Career Choices
- Political Structures
- Language
- Ability to interbreed with Halflings

Honestly there's almost nothing in common, other than overall shape, and Trolls are closer in size than Giants while still being the same overall shape.

That said, I have no problem with Ogres being of type "Giant", but I also think calling them "half-giant" is a terrible idea.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'd have to ask if everything is that much different from other Humanoids. Specifically to mention it, Orcs are probably far worse in all those areas and they are still Humanoid.

The only thing in there I'd also debate is the thing about 'eating human flesh' since I'm not sure Snow Giants specifically have any mention of doing that. I'd also wonder if any of the current Humanoids also 'don't' do that - specifically Halflings since I'm pretty sure there is a Fixedart Artefact running around about 'eating ones kin'.

Additionally, what would happen if we got some 'Humanoid' size enemies put in that were depicted as 'Savage' or 'Simple'.

Anyhow, I don't think having a Halfling bred into a new race that's called Ogre seems right either. The idea of transforming another Race or just having them exist seems better suited for Lore.

[Doctornull]

I'd have to ask if everything is that much different from other Humanoids.

Humanoid vs. Giant is a game mechanic distinction.

These mechanics are not particularly intuitive.

For example, there are mobile enemies of type "Immobile".

Anyhow, I don't think having a Halfling bred into a new race that's called Ogre seems right either. The idea of transforming another Race or just having them exist seems better suited for Lore.

Transforming Halflings, sure. They're one of the +Cunning races already, so they're similar to Ogres in terms of mental ability, while obviously being different in physical abilities.

(Yeeks and Shaloren would be a poor fit because they both have fantastic Willpower as well as good Cunning. Also, we have enough elves already IMHO.)

[Zonk]

Not exactly a fan of adding another 'typical' fantasy race, even if there's a light twist or something, although I'm sure if it goes into the vanilla game it will be handled in a pleasant way.

For one, we do already have trolls and snow giants as big NPC races in game - though the former might be too stupid and the latter too big, but something could be worked out.
Lore-wise, people would definetely not be too accepting of a troll adventurer, though. Snow-giants don't seem to have a reputation for savagery but again, they might be too big/too powerful (though I think this could be balanced).
If you only care about mechanically having a Str/Mag race that's not necessarily big, Vampires could also be a good justification, though as undead they'd have their own complications.


Also, I've got a nitpick - why do the ability names use 'Ogric'? That's odd. 'Ogrish' and 'Ogreish' are words, after all.
I think using 'Oni' as a name would bring up Japanese associations, plus actual Onis are demons so it's a bit confusing. It does fit with them being strong and magical, though. And some of the backgrounds suggested for the race here do mention demons, so I *guess* it could work.

I don't want to be too negative though, so I'll say I like the idea of a race that can start as Large. I'm just not sure Ogres are the best concept for that, although just because, I'll throw an idea: Instead of being the results of halfling experiments, they could be the result of *orc* experiments (perhaps involving crossbreeding with trolls or demons) who for some reason are not going to be attacked on sight in the West - maybe they switched sides during the wars.

[Doctornull]

Also, I've got a nitpick - why do the ability names use 'Ogric'? That's odd. 'Ogrish' and 'Ogreish' are words, after all.

ToME is a game that uses Wyrmic to mean "like a Wyrm".

So I made up Ogric to mean "like an Ogre".

IMHO it's appropriate for ToME, but speaking outside this game you'd be correct.

[Lubaf]

Do we have enough solidity to either A.) Move this over to Development, or B.) Instead start a few threads to work on the two sides of this in some other way?

Thanks
Luc "Simple Questions With Complex Answers" French

[Doctornull]

Do we have enough solidity to either A.) Move this over to Development

It seems to me that Development is more for game internals (stuff like rescaling combat power, or discussing hooks & callback issues).

Could you maybe just list these "two sides" which you perceive?

[Lubaf]

Do we have enough solidity to either A.) Move this over to Development

It seems to me that Development is more for game internals (stuff like rescaling combat power, or discussing hooks & callback issues).

Could you maybe just list these "two sides" which you perceive?

Lore (and more specifically, origins, since we seem to have their current place in the world nailed down), and the Talent List.

If we have those more or less nailed down, we can turn to asking around about sprites and coding the above, and then, perhaps, to getting Ogres into ToME proper.

Thanks
Luc "Directions" French