Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp

[Saka]

Ok, so you played berserker to only level 15, and you implying you are using 'logic' or whatever to attempt to re-design a class you have no experience with, a class you find too boring simply because you found it boring and thought you are doing a public service. Then you say something about 'game cred', appealing to authority, and logical fallacy because I made a point that I am not new to roguelikes (completely missed the point), and i stated that i start a marauder fresh and it needs a lot more microing than berserker, your rebuttal was GWF and flurry, on a fresh marauder(according to you it's according to shibari, resident expert player / dev, meaning you have no experience with marauders either).

I find stunning blow to be plenty interesting. You might be confusing what 'player skill' really means when it comes to Execute... On higher difficulties you either execute successfully or you don't, you don't risk sloppy executes and leave yourself open to 200% counterattack. Focusing gear on HP regen? I find the game dev forcing me to stack HP regen gear to be too BORING and no player skill involved. Oh I know I'm doing it wrong with fresh sub 10 marauder not having GWF/flurry.

There's theorycrafting, and then there's I am being trolled...

good day everyone, I'm done here ``

Edit1: I forgot! the discussion on making room with warshout just so you can death dance properly implies that there are restrictions with the move, so I don't get why suddenly there is no restriction anymore?

Lets start with the most interesting bit first:

Second, I am not new to roguelikes, I've ascended three 7 conduct tourists on alt.org/nethack back in 2010, the 7 conducts combination(AIPPWAG) are special in the way that you cannot 'cheat' your way into uber gear, and of course no bones, no pudding farming for those who play NH. I was in the the middle of 10 conduct(same mentality) tourist before I lost interest, the save file is still there. So I am not some random newb looking for simplification and dumbing down of the game, lol

My qualifications are that I started playing ToME 3 weeks ago and got a Berserker to level 15 before deciding it was dreadfully dull and could be so much better. It didn't die, I just didn't think the class was very fun and was not compelled to find out how much more interesting bumping into things could get in ToME, so I stopped playing and started designing an improvement.

Here we are today My experiences indicate that no one here is going to judge your ideas or opinion on your "gamer cred", doing so would simply be a form of the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.


Stunning Blow is for real the most boring skill left on Berserker after my initial revisions were done. It was also overpowered with its old duration. Lowering the CD was primarily to give more opportunities to press buttons, after all there is no guarantee you will chain stun anything, or even that using it every time the CD is up would be the best move now that you have 2 skills with NO cooldowns that would always be available. More buttons doesn't necessarily mean "better" gameplay, but in this case it means more player choice than rolling your face across 1-x keys and then spending the next 10 turns bumping into thing / running away before performing another faceroll.


Execute needs a drawback or there is no element of player skill in the talent. It is your strongest attack, by far, and you need to have a good gauge on how much damage you're going to do with it before you commit to using it. From a design perspective this is accomplished by both guaranteeing it will be a critical hit, and gauranteeing you will ignore x armour, making the damage consistent across multiple uses vs. many different types of enemies. The old drawback was really awkward because it cost you so much Stamina that using it to finish 1 enemy in a group could leave you without any Stamina to continue fighting, though maybe that wasn't as big a deal back when all you had to do w/ Berserker was bump into things and press Stunning Blow when it came up every 6 turns. I'd rather you expose yourself to 1 strong attack than be left without any Stamina in the new Berserker. Maybe a 200% Counterattack is too harsh... but if it gets people killed DarkGod will probably like it I don't think skilled players will have any trouble figuring out the right times to use it though, given how consistent I made the damage. Really all the penalty does is keep you from spamming it with no chance at all of killing something, which lets me lower the cooldown on it.

New Berserker Fury (since renamed to Rage I think... I forget) is a proper Sustain now. It won't stop you from fighting by running you out of Stamina, but it does help direct players towards focusing their gear on HP Regen, which will be a lot easier to start getting now that Bloodthirst is becoming a basic (unlocked) category. With enough HP Regen from items or Combat Veteran passives you won't ever need to turn it off anyway.

Then you're doing it wrong. Try maxing out Flurry + Greater Weapon Focus to do game breaking damage (according to Shibari, resident expert player / dev). Dual Wield is /far/ superior to 2H for raw damage output.

Finally, you will gain no ground with me by suggesting bumping into things as your primary method of combat is ever superior to "microing, thinking, and meticulous planning". If you don't like pressing buttons, ToME may not be the game for you. It has always been my impression that the goal of ToME is to make combat more interesting than other roguelikes by offering everyone, even the Warrior classes, more to do than just bump into things.

[Fortescue]

If you read all the posts you would see where I agreed that there wasn't really a reason to force movement to use Death Dance.

Also I was implying that this seems like a place where ideas are judged on their own merits, not those of the person presenting them.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'd figured I'd throw a couple of tidbits worth thinking over Fortescue:

First is simply on the issue of changing the Berserker Class on the issue of 'you not liking it'. Personally I didn't much like playing the Reaver class for example but I don't go around trying to advocate it's restructuring because I don't like that classes playstyle. If Berserkers are more bump oriented and you don't like that sort of playstyle then move on to try one of the other classes ToME has.

Second is that the Tales of Maj'Eyal isn't out to exclude certain players from playing the game in more traditional ways. While ToME features a lot of tactical combat and strategic thinking with buttons, their use is only a means to an end - ultimately ToME is about playing the game and having fun; that of course being with classes as simple as the current Berserker with very few buttons or something like the vast wealth of power Archmages have leading them to a full arsenal of buttons.

It's worth noting since I decided to look at the game statistics while writing this post, that Berserkers are currently the most popular class played at present time. If one looked further, they would also find that Dwarf Berserkers are the most popular combination players have chosen globally as well.

[bpat]

I'd figured I'd throw a couple of tidbits worth thinking over Fortescue:

First is simply on the issue of changing the Berserker Class on the issue of 'you not liking it'. Personally I didn't much like playing the Reaver class for example but I don't go around trying to advocate it's restructuring because I don't like that classes playstyle. If Berserkers are more bump oriented and you don't like that sort of playstyle then move on to try one of the other classes ToME has.

Second is that the Tales of Maj'Eyal isn't out to exclude certain players from playing the game in more traditional ways. While ToME features a lot of tactical combat and strategic thinking with buttons, their use is only a means to an end - ultimately ToME is about playing the game and having fun; that of course being with classes as simple as the current Berserker with very button buttons or something like the vast wealth of power Archmages have leading them to a full arsenal of buttons.

It's worth noting since I decided to look at the game statistics while writing this post, that Berserkers are currently the most popular class played at present time. If one looked further, they would also find that Dwarf Berserkers are the most popular combination players have chosen globally as well.

I agree, although they have some filler talents that need some work, I like the simplicity of the current Berserker. Some of the proposed changes are good but others seem to unnecessarily complicate a class that shouldn't be that complicated considering that it's the go-to class for new players.

[Zizzo]

Unfortunately, your class design has a fatal flaw:

[...] and lots more encouragement to take risks by offering greater rewards for doing so.

This is a roguelike. Risk = death. No amount of "reward" is going to change that.

Beyond that, I tend to sympathize with Davion Fuxa. I'm not particularly fond of the classes in the Afflicted or Defiler trees, for instance, because their resource mechanics are too annoying. My response to that, though, isn't to propose a redesign of them using Mana and Stamina, but simply to not play them.

Honestly, I think you should stick with your original plan of making this a class addon, and let it stand or fall on its merits. (If this is the way the in-game Berzerker class is going in the next version, I may have to look into making an addon class of my own...)

[Mankeli]

Finally, you will gain no ground with me by suggesting bumping into things as your primary method of combat is ever superior to "microing, thinking, and meticulous planning". If you don't like pressing buttons, ToME may not be the game for you. It has always been my impression that the goal of ToME is to make combat more interesting than other roguelikes by offering everyone, even the Warrior classes, more to do than just bump into things.

You still haven't provided us with any reason for why pressing 1 to activate a talent is somehow always more tactical than pressing one in numbad to bump. It can be more tactical but if your main goal is for people to just "press more buttons" then it probably won't be. Many players, who have gotten beyond level 15 BTW, including me, have already tried to explain to you why this design goal of your is not necessarily a good one. Confusing "straightforward" with "dull" or "brainless" or whatever is really bad if you are actually trying to improve this game.

As to your "TOME may not be the game for your", please try to bare in mind that there are some classes that don't require constant micromanagement with attack talents: one of them is the current berserker. So if you are actively trying to push for changes that make the game worse for some players, you probably need to come with some better arguments than that.

Ok, so you played berserker to only level 15, and you implying you are using 'logic' or whatever to attempt to re-design a class you have no experience with, a class you find too boring simply because you found it boring and thought you are doing a public service. Then you say something about 'game cred', appealing to authority, and logical fallacy because I made a point that I am not new to roguelikes (completely missed the point), and i stated that i start a marauder fresh and it needs a lot more microing than berserker, your rebuttal was GWF and flurry, on a fresh marauder(according to you it's according to shibari, resident expert player / dev, meaning you have no experience with marauders either).

This is a pretty good summary, thank you .

I agree, although they have some filler talents that need some work, I like the simplicity of the current Berserker. Some of the proposed changes are good but others seem to unnecessarily complicate a class that shouldn't be that complicated considering that it's the go-to class for new players.

Agreed!

Unfortunately, your class design has a fatal flaw:

[...] and lots more encouragement to take risks by offering greater rewards for doing so.

This is a roguelike. Risk = death. No amount of "reward" is going to change that.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier in this thread.

[Fortescue]

I'm automatically going to ignore anyone who brings up what level I got to, since you're using that as part of your argument, and it has nothing to do with the quality of the ideas presented. I'm glad DarkGod knows good ideas when he sees them.

I seriously doubt any of you who bring my experience up are as good a player as tomisgo, so as long as I'm taking people who have played more than me seriously I'll go with him.

[Mankeli]

I'm automatically going to ignore anyone who brings up what level I got to, since you're using that as part of your argument, and it has nothing to do with the quality of the ideas presented. I'm glad DarkGod knows good ideas when he sees them.

I seriously doubt any of you who bring my experience up are as good a player as tomisgo, so as long as I'm taking people who have played more than me seriously I'll go with him.

Yes, you have consistently dismissed a large part of the feedback that doesn't directly agree and/or praise your idea (like my first post in this thread). However, this has nothing to do with people using their experience as a tool for giving advices to try to help improve this suggestions of yours. On this very forum page, just above my previous post, there are three posters that don't mention your lack of experience in any way and yet share the same concerns I do. And you have ignored them as well. For example, Davion Fuxa presented us with interesting numbers that seemingly contradict your "berserkers are boring" premiss -or then people just like being masochistic and play classes they don't like.

In the future, I strongly recommend that you take a less passive-aggressive stand when introducing your ideas. You claimed you wanted feedback but when people tried to give you the requested feedback you simply chose to ignore much of the feedback and chose to hide behind the backs of players who supposedly support all of your ideas instead. If you are asking for feedback the very first step you need to take is to prepare yourself for the fact that not all of it is going to be positive. Actually, making the original idea better should be the very point of giving and asking for feedback! Also, I'm amazed by your condescending attitude even towards the posters that mostly agreed with you and tried to give you informative and thorough feedback, like Saka. "If you don't like all of my ideas then TOME is not the game for you" kind of arguments are disrespectful especially when that very poster has actually encouraged you and thanked for a good job done in the very same post! You can't really blame Saka for abandoning this thread.

This is pretty basic stuff but I sincerely hope it will help you communicate your ideas in a more constructive way next time.

[Fortescue]

Am I supposed to take someone who is misquoting me seriously?

[Forger101]

You should be taking Mankeli seriously, he is telling you good advice. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't mean that you can't gain valuable information from it. I have been following along on this forum and haven't posted anything mainly for the reasons Mankeli has just stated. This community is often times honest and never looking for an argument. Please think on this before just saying things about others on the forums.

[Fortescue]

My mistake was using the phrase "pushing more buttons" to describe what was really increased tactical options. Current Berserker has less options per turn than any other class in the game. All my changes do is increase those options by:

• Removing 1 attack (Sunder Weapon)
• Adding 1 (objectively better) attack (Fearless Cleave)
• Replacing an underperforming Sustain (Blood Frenzy) with a powerful Active (Relentless Fury)
• Lowering some cooldowns
• Changing what some skills do slightly (making them more worth putting 5/5 points in, typically)

These are all positive changes with the end result being that instead of Rush -> Stunning Blow -> Bump until another Stunning Blow, the Berserker player has many more options at their disposal in any given turn, enabling more aggressive play and less reliance on corridor fighting and bumping into things because you didn't have any other buttons worth pressing. I'm being pretty specific there, it isn't only that Berserker had less buttons, they had less that were worth putting points into. This fixes that, making more talents more appealing to get to 5/5 and more rewarding when you use them.

The final take away is that every time you spend a talent point in these 3 revised categories you should feel GOOD about doing so and look forward to each level up, not like you're just spending points because you're swimming in them and have nothing better to use them on.

If I've offended people, my apologies, and I won't even qualify that statement since Forger101 had the decency to talk to me in a respectful manner.

[Mewtarthio]

I don't really have a problem with bump-heavy classes, but the current Berserker doesn't seem like it has a lot of build options. I'm pretty much in favor of anything that makes its talents more exciting. This revamp doesn't look like it'll make bumpserkers more difficult to play, but it would make the choice of where to put your talent points more interesting.

If, on the other hand, you'd rather make the Berserker a pure bump class, you really need to take that and run with it. Don't leave it like it is now, with like two decent talents outside the Bloodthirst tree; it needs a bunch of passives and sustains to sink points into. Berserkers are simple enough right now, true, and I'll admit that slaughtering hordes of foes by mashing the numpad does give a bit of a power rush, but that's not enough to hold my interest for a campaign as long as ToME's. I want levelups to be exciting.

[Fortescue]

I don't think anyone on the Dev side wants Berserker to be even more one dimensional than it is now, which is what bump classes are.

[Mankeli]

You should be taking Mankeli seriously, he is telling you good advice. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't mean that you can't gain valuable information from it. I have been following along on this forum and haven't posted anything mainly for the reasons Mankeli has just stated. This community is often times honest and never looking for an argument. Please think on this before just saying things about others on the forums.

Thank you, Forger101, you have a point.

My mistake was using the phrase "pushing more buttons" to describe what was really increased tactical options. Current Berserker has less options per turn than any other class in the game.

Yeah, maybe this doesn't require so much more button pressing than one could have assumed. However, that being said I also was talking about the Primal hunter tree too (which is, of course, still speculation). I won't cry for Sunder weapon that's for certain but I think death dance was already pretty alright and stunning blow too -stunning duration was powerful but it's not like it's the only stun in the game. The "one point wonderness" regarding the old death dance is true and if it's seen as a prolem then fine. Also I like the berserker talent change and AFAIK the old Deathblow was useless.

I don't have the time to give more informative feedback right now, but I guess my concerns were heard already anyways.

[Fortescue]

Heh. I didn't even outline any skills for Primal Hunter yet (aside from an extremely vague description of something involving a throwing axe). Whenever I get around to that expect it to involve bleed effects more in some way or another in at least 1 skill.

If it bleeds...