Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

[Amphouse]

*Standing Ovation* YOU TELL 'EM AURA!

[Burb Lulls]

[zig]First of all, my hermetic-- ... Ah, my ears just popped. Much better. Anyway:

First of all, my hermetical hogwash-hawker, purple is the arcane colour! Purple!

Secondly, to your query of 'how many fields of blighted decay we restored at great effort'? A goodly number, though perhaps credit should go to all wilders in this instance, not just Ziguranth wilders. Tis long, gruelling work - no simple waving of a staff and leaving it up to your much-fetishised debasing of the threads.

(On the subject of threads: Your repeated assertions of magic and nature being two draughts from the same well is both only true in the most broad of terms, and of entirely no impact on our views of you. Both are the results of manipulating Eyal's threads, true, but while wilders gently play upon them as you would play 'Pachelbel's Canon' upon a harp, so do arcanists torture them with a wall-eyed rendition of 'Through The Fire and The Flames' on an ill-tuned banjo. Tis not healthy for them.)

You consider Angolwen a meritocracy, hm? Linaniil is the most powerful of your number, so she is obviously the most fitting to lead? It comes as no surprise to us that mages hold a 'might makes right' stance upon rulership. Is this how social standing is decided as well? The upper classes of Angolwen are seemingly not those with the greatest culture or wisdom, but those who can conjure the largest fireball...

Regarding your consternation on the phrase "dead god" - Quekorja. Literal dead god, you know? The only force keeping your deified ruler alive? Paging idly through this dog-eared copy of 'The Spellblaze Chronicles' before me, I can only ascertain that she drew in this god's power because... she wanted more power? If that is the reasoning given by this sanitised, mage-approved version of the Spellblaze's events, who knows what dark drives moved her hand in truth? I must say, it puts your impassioned claims that mages understand temperance and care when dealing with magic under some amount of suspicion.

(Incidentally, your queries into our own form of government? A true meritocracy, of course. Whomever is most able to protect us, protect nature, becomes Protector. Our chickens, thankfully, remain unmolested. If, for some reason, a Protector becomes corrupt or incompetent, we at least can contest them, replace them, overthrow them if need be. What will Angolwen do when it and Linaniil's goals become divided...?)

Linaniil's actions - and indeed, her reign - segue nicely to another of your criticisms; the prime criticism regarding the Ziguranth, we believe. Why do the mages of today suffer the punishment for crimes committed by mages long past? Simple. While time, generations, eras have passed... mage society has not progressed.

You've stopped.

This is the crux of the matter. Despite all your talk of safety and control, your sermonising on the countless lessons concerning morals and ethics that all mages supposedly receive... within such a static, insular domain, it all rings hollow. The rules and ideals that mages ascribe to have likely endured for centuries, given that your ruler has. Arcanists were likely espousing the very same beliefs moments before the 'Blaze. It didn't dull magic's danger then, and it doesn't now.

This goes beyond Linaniil's permanence too. The Shaloren council are immortals, if I recall. It seems that, among the magical's ruling castes, power is not something given up willingly...

Increasingly, the existence of magic becomes a stifling chokehold on the people of Eyal. How do you expect society to advance with Angolwen's shadow looming large over the land? Rogues design traps of ever more intricate and ingenious design - interlocking gears and cogs working in concert to achieve incredible results. Who knows what the limits of such a craft are?

The response? "Rudimentary knowledge. Not as good as magic."

Or what about here, in Zigur? The fungal remedies we have developed are nothing short of miraculous. Many who have witnessed magic's folly at an excruciatingly personal level (you may know them as 'the Doomed') only live today because of our herbalistic prowess. You say many are dead because of the Ziguranth? Many live because of the Ziguranth.

But the response? "You stole that from a wyrm. Icky, how unhygienic. Not as good as magic."

Saving lives is unhygienic to a mage? How telling.

Tug at the base, and your arguments topple like the proverbial house of cards. You allow others into Angolwen? As second-class citizens. I'm sure those 'aspersions cast without due cause' are rather 'criticisms mages have no answer for' in truth. I'm sure that ancient halflings allowed yeeks within their manses and abodes in past times when they were working, and let us not forget that the very founding members of the Ziguranth shared the same domain as the Conclave - albeit, our lodgings were somewhat more... spartan.

How many libraries are there across Eyal? One in Last Hope, for a start. And the Iron Throne. Elvala too; although... do you call a library that only distributes mage propaganda a true library? Even in towns as small as Derth there are crafters and purveyors of infusions - men who you could rightly call scribes. Darwood Oakton, famed explorer and scholar, is notably not a mage. Beyond libraries there are establishments that sell texts and parchments - this speaks not only of the prowess to mass-produce literature, but a population that can appreciate it too. For all the challenges that Eyal's fair citizens face - rogue mages, necromancers, corruptors, magic-born horrors, raging elementals, temporal rifts, and the creeping dread of the knowledge that some rogue sorceror may one day eliminate all life entirely - illiteracy is not one of them.

The mages' automatic spouting of 'anybody who opposes us is uneducated', their self-defence mechanism, is not only deeply insulting, but inaccurate as well.

*weary sigh*

This world... it is not only for us, you understand. Eyal is not full of deranged, power-hungry mages or sword-rattling, wild-eyed Ziguranth. When I think of Eyal, I think of the common Derthman. A mother, a civilian, and her children. The simple farmer - the type you regard as vermin, by the way. I see them, and I ask "Why should they have to put up with all of this?".

You say that magic benefits their lives, too? Prove it. You reap the fruits of magic; common folk simply deal with the fallout.
You say that Angolwen's practices are faultless? Then allow them external scrutiny. Have Linaniil step down. Submit yourself to the Allied Kingdom's dominion. Allow non-mages to judge magic as well.

Until then, we Ziguranth will continue to make Maj'Eyal a better place... one mage at a time.[/zig]

• * * *

But for real, Ham-to-Ham Combat aside, I'm not nearly as vociferous a defender of the Ziguranth as I appear. My in-universe thoughts are pretty much in line with Grey's - they're a pack of murderous Medieval-era guerrilla fighters with a fondness for disproportionate retribution that nevertheless have legitimate concerns.

I do like them in a meta sense. That might be in part because, ah... it was one of my suggestions that led to their creation. So --[zig]YOU SPEAK TO THE FATHER OF THE ZIGURANTH, YOU INSOLENT FOOLS[/zig] -- I mean, sorry.

PS: Did you know that, despite all this, my username here is actually that of a mage?

Oh, and since you reminded me: More Ward!

I am working on it, honest. The next part's just being uncooperative.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

so do arcanists torture them with a wall-eyed rendition of 'Through The Fire and The Flames' on an ill-tuned banjo.

Damn you. I cannot get this out of my head now.... It would sound GLORIOUS...

Also, I really need to read the spellblaze chornicles. However, just because Linanill might steal the power of a dead god, does not mean that she, or any, are 'worshipping' one. And just because she's immortal and strong doesn't make her best suited to lead, the tragedies she has suffered (as a result OF the spellblaze), and the vision she holds for the future make her best suited. She truly understands the horrors that the spellblaze perpetrated, and knows that magic might be necessary to preserve the world itself.

And if she was somehow corrupt and dictatorial, do you really think all the other mages in existence would lack the power to ambush and overthrow her, should that really occur?

Oh, and mana is BLUE. And all those people of recurring donations are more important then the one time green folk. Coincidence that mana would align itself with the color of higher individuals? Proof of mana's right to exist in the world.

As for the name being a mage, I did not know that. I just figured that was your chosen name, and the snow giant in game was named after you.

[Grey]

I do like them in a meta sense. That might be in part because, ah... it was one of my suggestions that led to their creation. So --[zig]YOU SPEAK TO THE FATHER OF THE ZIGURANTH, YOU INSOLENT FOOLS[/zig] -- I mean, sorry. :wink:

Didn't you also help to create the necromancers? :P I think you just have a love for extremes :) As long as someone suffers, you're happy!

Everybody, the TRUE threat to Eyal is Burb Lulls!

[pheonix89]

so do arcanists torture them with a wall-eyed rendition of 'Through The Fire and The Flames' on an ill-tuned banjo.

Damn you. I cannot get this out of my head now.... It would sound GLORIOUS...

Also, I really need to read the spellblaze chornicles. However, just because Linanill might steal the power of a dead god, does not mean that she, or any, are 'worshipping' one. And just because she's immortal and strong doesn't make her best suited to lead, the tragedies she has suffered (as a result OF the spellblaze), and the vision she holds for the future make her best suited. She truly understands the horrors that the spellblaze perpetrated, and knows that magic might be necessary to preserve the world itself.

And if she was somehow corrupt and dictatorial, do you really think all the other mages in existence would lack the power to ambush and overthrow her, should that really occur?

Oh, and mana is BLUE. And all those people of recurring donations are more important then the one time green folk. Coincidence that mana would align itself with the color of higher individuals? Proof of mana's right to exist in the world.

As for the name being a mage, I did not know that. I just figured that was your chosen name, and the snow giant in game was named after you.

Hmm, I dunno if the other mages could take her out. Its noted in the last chapter that an Arcane Blade who was strong enough that she thought he could kill her if she did go crazy from the powerup and brought him specifically to do that if she did lose it would have gotten stomped in a fight.

On the other hand, the fact that the woman did, you know, successfully absorb the power of a god does conclusively prove her the greatest mage alive. Everyone else who has tried to use the remains of gods other than MAYBE the Sher'tul has gone nuts. It doesn't prove she is the greatest leader, but anyone that powerful has to have a voice in government, simply because they wield enough power that their personal involvement can make or break policy options.

[jotwebe]

Everyone else who has tried to use the remains of gods other than MAYBE the Sher'tul has gone nuts. It doesn't prove she is the greatest leader, but anyone that powerful has to have a voice in government, simply because they wield enough power that their personal involvement can make or break policy options.

Unless, of course, she has gone nuts as well, but subtly so. Dun dun DUN dun...

[pheonix89]

Everyone else who has tried to use the remains of gods other than MAYBE the Sher'tul has gone nuts. It doesn't prove she is the greatest leader, but anyone that powerful has to have a voice in government, simply because they wield enough power that their personal involvement can make or break policy options.

Unless, of course, she has gone nuts as well, but subtly so. Dun dun DUN dun...

Considering that she's been doing pretty much nothing but protecting angolwen for what, two ages, despite being the most powerful being in the setting, that is highly unlikely.

[jotwebe]

Considering that she's been doing pretty much nothing but protecting angolwen for what, two ages, despite being the most powerful being in the setting, that is highly unlikely.

And that just goes to show, doesn't it? A mite suspicious, yes? What is there at Angolwen that a mad immortal would dedicate her existence to keep it hidden?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Since mages want to protect the world, I would assume some sort of mad doomsday device that would destroy the entire planet if tampered with. Maybe something like the location of the missing Sher'Tul/gods. Perhaps some dangerous remnant of the spellblaze. Perhaps some super-powered version of Athamathon that would rampage across the world (Prothotipe, anyone?)

Or maybe it's a ring of extra ring fingers (-2). Or ham. Who knows?

[HousePet]

Or maybe she has to remain there to keep the protections going.

(and there is Tarrelliwelly)

[darkgod]

I do like them in a meta sense. That might be in part because, ah... it was one of my suggestions that led to their creation. So --[zig]YOU SPEAK TO THE FATHER OF THE ZIGURANTH, YOU INSOLENT FOOLS[/zig] -- I mean, sorry.

Didn't you also help to create the necromancers? I think you just have a love for extremes As long as someone suffers, you're happy!

Everybody, the TRUE threat to Eyal is Burb Lulls!

Hail the True Horror !

But please, crim, do continue; maybe somdeday your epic verbal fight will appear ingame!

[Sianist]

would love to hear an in-character explenation of why things such as Hate or Psi are accepted within the Ziguranths, while at the face of it they're similar to Vim and Mana respectively

[Burb Lulls]

would love to hear an in-character explenation of why things such as Hate or Psi are accepted within the Ziguranths, while at the face of it they're similar to Vim and Mana respectively

My internal 'fanon' reasoning has always been the source of the powers - whether they come from within or without. Psionics come from your own mind, techniques and stamina stuff are your own abilities and skills, hate-power comes from within... nature gifts are the odd one out here; I handwave it and say it comes from within anyway since "people are just as much a part of nature as trees, rocks, etc."

On the other hand, the ability to use magic comes from external "mana channels" (mentioned in chapter 5 of the Spellblaze Chronicles, if I remember correctly), chronomancy comes from time and space getting ripped a new one by the 'Blaze, celestial power obviously comes from celestial bodies, vim comes from using other peoples' lifeforces, pacts with demons and who-knows-what... The main thrust of Ziguranth reasoning (I guess) is that 'powers from within' are understood better - their limits and dangers and so forth.

But then that's just me. Sometimes I forget what is actually true in-game, and what I've just thought for a while and decided is canon

[Mewtarthio]

would love to hear an in-character explenation of why things such as Hate or Psi are accepted within the Ziguranths, while at the face of it they're similar to Vim and Mana respectively

[afflicted]Ain't nothing unnatural about Afflicted powers. If a mage wants you to die, he summons bursts of flame or weird diseases to kill you for him. When I want you to die, I just hit you in the head with my axe 'til you stop moving. Nothin' more natural than that.

...Okay, I guess it's kinda weird that I can kill you through solid walls and whatnot, but I just hate you so much, y'know?

[Sirrocco]

Simply, magic hurts the earth. Some hurts it less, some hurts it more, but all of it tears and stresses and breaks things that shouldn't be broken. Nature powers are getting in tune with and channeling the forces of nature - asking for favors from the world, rather than mugging it for its pocket money. Equilibrium, and equilibrium fails, are about the powers of nature getting a little sick of your neediness for a while, but that's the difference with nature powers - when nature gets sick of you, it can just say no. Stamina's cool because that's all you. Psi's cool, because that's all you too - just in a different way. Hate's okay, because that's actually somethign that nature's doing to you - when nature decided that magic just wasn't okay anymore, that decision both created the antimagic tree (a new thing in the nature of the world) and the Hatred resource (a new thing in the nature of people). Thus far it's been really quite effective at producing people who wipe out the arcane... and if they happen to wipe out some folks who aren't arcane after all, well, the herd could use a bit of culling, really.

Personally, I enjoy playing a zealous Antimagic Doomed. "Hey, kids. Don't be stupid like I was. Don't do what I did. No. *Really*."