Remove all potions.

[madmonk]

In SVN though, right? Which I have no idea how to access... It's just I want to post ideas but it's impossible without context!

OK, this has some detail!

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=22545

It assumes for a MAC. Apologies for the dodgy looking link... It does work and goes to our forum!

In the middle is the bit around SVN:

Execute the following command in the terminal (this may take a while).

svn co --username guest --password guestor http://svn.net-core.org/repos/t-engine4 t-engine4

Username Guest, Password: guestor

Here is a link to how to compile:

http://wiki.te4.org/howtocompile:frontpage

This lot of links contains all you need...

One warning: The devs are constantly committing code and sometimes they have to rollback/workaround/recover code, which means that if you are on an SVN (which is not an official release SVN) then you might be in for a bit of a wild ride!

As an example: SVN 1909 the m, e, i, u (and other) keys don't work.

[Susramanian]

- Rerolling based on your level makes it entirely too easy to scum low-level dungeons, acquire a huge stack of them, and then reroll them to the player's level - particularly if you can be cramming in egos while you do.

Good point. I hadn't considered that. Perhaps they can reroll to an average of the levels of the two runes. This would keep the pressure on to find more powerful runes.

- You say "getting runes and infusions that do exactly what you want them to is quite important" - but that's not true, unless you have some sort of deeply integrated skill-and-infusion strategy. It's important to get runes/infusions that will take care of your needs (whatever they may happen to be) but they're like gear now. If you have an infusion that cures poison/disease and a stun-resist armor, you're in about the same place as if you have a free action infusion and a poison/blight resistant armor - and grinding for infusions won't really be all that different from grinding for gear.

I suppose I was looking at the system on a smaller scale than you are. I meant getting runes to do what you want to fit your current needs. To use your example, if you've got the poison/blight resist armor, but lack stun resistance, then you'll want to construct different runes than an identical character in different gear. I didn't mean making the perfect runes for your perfect eventual endgame talent/gear build.
As for grinding for gear, I don't do it, and I don't picture grinding for runes. Getting a hardened mithril plate of the mumakil is a mind-numbing task that could easily take dozens of hours of scumming orc prides. Getting a brawler's teleportation rune of absorption is a matter of finding several much less rare items and combining them cleverly. This system does exactly the opposite of making grinding for runes like grinding for gear.

- As far as inventory clutter goes, there they also act a lot more like equipment than like potions/scrolls. They don't stack, but you'll also never carry them *in* to the dungeon - and if you find one that you don't want to wear and don't care to sell, you can easily just leave it behind.

What you describe is what I originally wanted. Having them act like equipment would be good-- fairly permanent things that you generally stockpile in town and use in strategic decisions, not tactical decisions. Certain people objected strenuously to it, so I compromised. In that situation, I agree. They would not be inventory clutter. But now you can swap them out in dungeons, and so the current vision held seems to be that you inscribe new ones as needed (though they start on cooldown). This means keeping a supply of all runes on hand that you might want, which is one of the things I was originally trying to avoid. I'd like to find a way to fix this.

I'd much rather the interesting tactical challenge of "hey - I suddenly got this amazing rune that does this interesting thing. How do take advantage of that?" than the grind-and-build challenge of "I've figured out exactly which runes I want, and I'm going to keep going until I get them." If anything, the "mix runes/infusions" bit is going to make for more of an inventory hassle, rather than less, as people accumulate and hang on to random runes that they want for the prefix/suffix/base rather than just applying them or selling them off as they get them.

You're right that we lose the fun gameplay challenge of trying to find a use for a particular rune found. I think that it's offset by certain fun things that the system adds, like being able to at least get something done towards some end with most runes you find instead of dismissing most finds as not what you're looking for. And similar thrills to the one you describe still exist; finding a new, interesting ego is quite exciting, as you say, "Man, I've got to find a way to include this ego in my set of runes."

You're throwing around the word 'grind' again, but there's nothing inherently grindy about the system, any more than finding any other piece of gear. Just keep on adventuring, and build your ideal runes as you come across components, and inscribe them when they're ready. I think it will be very fun to have a couple runes in your bag for which you're keeping an eye out for the right parts and upgrading as you go. But if we can get things working so that we don't carry runes around as needed (strategic instead of tactical), then you're right-- this will cause more inventory clutter than if it didn't exist. But I *did* try to set it up so that you're really only carrying around a few runes that you're actually building, and you apply or ignore new runes as you find them instead of accumulating a whole mountain of them.

It seems that the current tactical nature of runes versus the original strategic nature is causing a little trouble here. I'd love to hear suggestions!

[Sirrocco]

Ah. My apologies. I'd not been playing SVN, and hadn't realized they were hot-swappable that does change a few things. I'm not at all convinced that the ability to merge-and-thus-upgrade will reduce clutter under that system, though. If anything, it would be that much worse. After all, you'd want your preferred prefixes and suffixes for as many runes/infusions as you intended to regularly hotswap, you'd want higher level runes/infusions without prefixes or suffixes to drag the item level up with, you'd want your current usable groups (with all but a core few focused on the "short cooldown" egos) and so forth. At least with the current system, you're at worst only grabbing clutter for the best of each type (for your purposes) you can find. You probably wouldn't have more than five or ten. As soon as you turn them into crafter ingredients, however....

I would note that I personally don't mind a bit of grinding in good cause. I don't generally grind for specific equipment - I'll take whatever I find - but I do generally try to be above the top of the level curve when walking through escort-quest dungeons, and I'm willing to grind a fair bit to do it. My point was that the amount of gear-grinding we do is tolerable, and leads to certain level of control. No one (or almost no one) grinds for some "perfect" set of gear. You grind (if necessary) until you have something that fills your basic needs and then you go with it. Likewise, no one (or almost no one) will grind for some exact set of infusions. If their infusion set isn't up to par, they might grind until they have enough to fit their basic needs, but then they'll be done.

Likewise, a lot of your runes/infusions will be useless to you other than as vendor bait - but this is true of gear as well.

[Vee]

Minor correction: Infusions (And runes as well, I guess) don't 'swap' they overwrite. So once you applied one to your body, you can't get the previous one back. (As of SVN 1910)

V

[ushumgal]

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or a fan of classic roguelikes, but it seems this is an exceedingly complex solution to a simple problem, one that appears to add a lot more confusion and clutter than it resolves.

I'd personally much prefer to stick with the traditional potions and scrolls, and perhaps just tweak the system a bit, perhaps to add some of the interesting ideas that have been proposed for infusions/runes. As far as it being unrealistic to use potions in battles...I'm not so sure, I think it's fair enough to just have using one cost a turn. After all, true realism is not possible in a turn-based game, so the focus should be on smooth and entertaining game play.

Not to sound like a party pooper, that's just how I see it.

[edge2054]

After getting to play with these a bit last night I was really impressed with Darkgod's implementation.

I'm not sure how close they follow Sus's original idea or even the last post Sus made on them though.

From what I saw they look like this.

You get three slots. You start out with two filled. Infusion of the Wild and Infusion of Regeneration. These are basically short cooldown potions of cure and regeneration.

You can find new infusions that have egos and place them in an empty slot or over write a filled slot. The slots don't show up on your character sheet or under equipment, they appear under the m key.

As to egos they seemed attached to whatever rune or infusion was found.

[Sirrocco]

Re: swapping: Ah. That's what I'd *thought* was going on.

...so the "strategic resource, not tactical" thing is still in effect. Sure, you can swap in the dungeon, but the choice to swap a rune/infusion is a permanent choice, as the rune/infusion it replaces is gone forever. You might decide that you're willing to dedicate one slot to whichever rune/infusion is handy at the time, and swap regularly for tactical advantage, but it's not at all clear that that's going to do better for you than just filling that slot with the best currently available - certainly not to the point that you'd be encouraged to fill your inventory with runes to swap in. Thus, customizable runes/infusions are still going to be generally more inventory-cluttering than "you get what you find".

Also, this opens up a delightful tree idea for Alchemists - consumable item creation.
- Brew/Drink Potion: turns an infusion into one or more single-use potions with similar effect.
- Scribe/Read Scroll: turns a rune into one or more single-use scrolls with similar effect.
- Carve/Recharge Wand: lets you attach a rune to a blank wand to create an wand that does the rune thing, and recharge wands using mana and alchemist gems
- Craft Rune/Infusion: something along the lines of what Sus was suggesting with merging runes and infusions to make better ones.

All of these would have the classic alchemist skill "higher levels of skill are required for higher level rune/infusions". All would require mana and any or all might require alchemist gems. Both drink potion and read scroll would have a cooldown associated with them - this is more about tactical flexibility than the raw power of quaffing four full heal potions in a single fight. Preferably. the cooldown would be longer for more powerful potions/scrolls, but I'm not sure how doable that is. It feels appropriate that the Alchemist, while he doesn't naturally have the breadth of tactical powers that the other mages get, can pretty much do the same thing through crafting and preparation and carrying around a lot of stuff

[Susramanian]

I'm prepared to admit that, with the new setup and despite my original goal, adding this rune-combination mechanic will result in more stuff in your bags. I feel that its other merits warrant its inclusion anyway. Everything else in the game is 'what you find is what you get.' Why all the fear of something different? I would bet money that the majority of players will have fun building runes and infusions as described above. There's a good reason that crafting systems are popping up so frequently these days in video games: constructing stuff is fun.

And before anybody jumps on me and rants and raves about how horrible game X's crafting system is and how it has no place in a roguelike, note that I'm just using them to point out that building stuff can be fun.

[madmonk]

I too have started playing with this, and I think it is too early to tell one way or the other.

Can we wait before we condemn it to the official beta release? Let's get other players comments first!

[Sirrocco]

Perhaps you could elaborate on its merits, then?

- It is a crafting thing, and crafting is fun.
I'll buy this. Some folks like crafting. I don't think it should be a default, though, as some folks don't like crafting, and there shouldn't be an obvious "you do the crafting thing or you suffer". Thus my suggestion of the Alchemist skill tree. It might even be reasonable to include a character somewhere that would let you unlock the skill tree for a sum of money (possibly also requiring a category point), so that people who wanted to run with it could, regardless of class, but wouldn't get it for free. (Alchemists would start with it fully unlocked, and might even have a point in Brew/Drink potion initially)

- It would make the game more about figuring out exactly what you want and building towards it, and less about taking what you get and figuring out how to make use of it. This is where I have a real disagreement with the thing. For the most part, gear is passive abilities. You may know that you need a certain amount before you go in to deal with something, and knowing that you have 95% fire resist may cause you to behave differently in certain situations than knowing you had -20% fire resist, but aside from the activated magical items, it isn't changing the way you do things (and even those often don't change it much). Currently, it's entirely possible to find a nifty new infusion or rune that will be obviously potent enough that you'll want to wear it and use it and fit it into your strategy, even if it warps said strategy around a little - and that's cool. On the other hand, if you have the crafting thing, then anyone who's reasonably spoiled is going to know pretty much exactly what sorts of runes/infusions they want already. The runes/infusions that they're wearing are going to be better compared to what they pick up off the ground (since they'll have crafted them) and rather than wearing the Nifty New Thing, they'll hang on to it so that they can render it down for parts and make a marginally niftier (but not all that much different) version of the more-or-less-the-same infusions/runes they have now.

Yes, crafting is popular - but in every game it's in, it's also pretty much optional - it takes a lot of resources going in, and the benefits it provides (while nice) are not overwhelming, so the people who want to game without crafting (and there are a lot of them) can do so without falling behind the power curve.

I don't really think there's all that much condemnation going on - Sus just wants to add more stuff on top. On the other hand, the people that don't like it ought to have the opportunity to speak, no?

[Susramanian]

I'm certainly fine with the system going in as is so everybody can get a feel for it.

Okay, here are the merits which I think outweigh the potential inventory issues:

1) Building stuff is fun.
2) Provides a middle ground between 'what you find is what you get' and 'I'll take a brawler's phase door rune of range, please. Hold the cooldown.' Gear cannot be controlled at all by the player. Talents are fully under control by the player. A mechanic somewhere between these would introduce new sorts of gameplay.
3) Provides a potential use for the great many runes that would otherwise be vendor trash or dungeon litter. (Actually, this brings up a point worth discussing: if runes are worth selling, people will feel obliged to sell them, turning their bags into a mess of non-stacking runes. If the value of rendering them down into useful runes is greater than the value of selling them, which seems likely, then this actually does reduce inventory clutter.)

It sounds like you want runes to be the constants that force change in gear, talent, and tactics choices. That would be perfectly valid and fun, as you say. Full of interesting gameplay. But that doesn't mean that a different setup is wrong. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of runes that aren't constant-- runes that can be adjusted by the player to fit a need generated by what might be perceived as fixed gear choices or dungeon conditions. That's also full of interesting gameplay. I suppose the difference between us is that I think the merits listed above weigh things in favor of the variable rune scheme.

[Sirrocco]

...and that's why I was suggesting the idea of rune/infusion crafting as something one could opt into, at the cost of a small but significant number of generic talent points, possibly a category point, and a quest or monetary outlay or something. It lets the people who want to do the crafting thing do the crafting thing and get a benefit from it. It lets the people who want to do the "let our fates be guided by the runes that we find" thing do that, and not be inherently penalized for it. If you want to make infusioncrafting a bit more accessible (and I think that's reasonable) then you could have that be the first talent in the tree, with potions, scrolls, and wands above it. I am not attempting to deny you your playstyle - I just don't want its existence to may my playstyle the fundamentally weaker option.

[madmonk]

Correct me if I am wrong... (I very often am, so I will not be offended)! but one of the reasons to do runes/infusions was to reduce the inventory list.

So as of SVN 1920 I have this truncated report on a character, and I fail to see how this list of runes and infusions is any better than the list of potions and scrolls for previous versions (see the red bits...). In some respects it's worse since they don't stack! Confused as always!

Also and on a side note I would like to see an explanation for how it works as it was implemented!

[Tome 4.00 @ http://www.te4.org Character Dump]

Sex : Male STR: 28
Race : Skeleton DEX: 31
Class : Summoner MAG: 14
Level : 7 WIL: 28
Exp : 95% CUN: 21
Gold : 80.69 CON: 20

[Character Inventory]

a) healing infusion
b) movement infusion
c) movement infusion
d) regeneration infusion
e) sneak's movement infusion
f) sneak's wild infusion
g) sun infusion
h) sun infusion
i) sun infusion
j) sun infusion
k) wild infusion
l) duelist's teleportation rune
m) phase door rune
n) teleportation rune
o) Orb of Scrying
p) iron battleaxe 'Bethekira' (11-16.5 power, 1 apr)
q) iron dagger of massacre (4.5-5.85 power, 5 apr)
r) steel dagger of accuracy (10-13 power, 6 apr)
s) iron mace of accuracy (7-9.8 power, 2 apr)
t) elm staff (4.5-5.4 power, 2 apr, light damage)
u) rough leather belt of the mystic
v) grounding cured leather armour (2 def, 4 armor)
w) 154 poisonous elven-wood arrow (43-60.2 power, 14 apr)
x) 3 agate
y) opal
z) 2 spinel
{) 2 amethyst
|) elm wand of illumination (7/7)
}) solid ash wand of detection (5/5)
~) 2 ametrine
) zircon

And finally as always with something new there is that adventure of discovery so that is fun! Thank you to the coders for introducing new fun!

[update]I just saw edge's comment's around inventory and stuff... so treat this as confirmation.

The issue I have with the explanation of the implementation as quoted above is that when I apply an ego rune/infusion I don't see any clue (apart from in the explanation) that it is anything special. I believe that should be fixed (I'll report the problem)

[Sirrocco]

The question there becomes "Why is this person hanging on to a bunch of infusions and a few runes?"

Most likely, the answer is "he's intending to sell them."

When you head back to town with a load of loot to sell, your inventory is going to be full of *something*. the inventory management question is how much stuff you have in your inventory *after* you've sold off all the junk.

[madmonk]

The question there becomes "Why is this person hanging on to a bunch of infusions and a few runes?"

Most likely, the answer is "he's intending to sell them."

When you head back to town with a load of loot to sell, your inventory is going to be full of *something*. the inventory management question is how much stuff you have in your inventory *after* you've sold off all the junk.

Actually I am in the bottom of the Old Forest and this is just stuff I picked up along the way...

So the point of all this is that we still are in the loads of junk mode and the new system does nothing to resolve that. I am cool with that.

In reality I have lost some options as a result of only being able to take 3 options in the new system. This means I am going to have to cart around a bunch of runes/infusions to cater for situations that a "standard setup" (whatever that is?) does not cater for. Don't get me wrong, by the way, it makes for interesting decisions as one progresses through the game.

Since it is so new I am still in the spirit of discovery and having fun finding out how it works!